Are you an introvert? Or an empath? Do you know what an INFJ or a HSP is? If you do, chances are you will LOVE this episode. If you don’t, here is your chance to learn about a beautiful group of people around you.
In today’s episode you get a glimpse of what it is like to sit Inside the Therapy Room with someone who celebrates your gentle soul. Where we discuss the conversation around being an INFJ, how to navigate an extroverted world as an introvert, and how beneficial therapy can be for ‘helpers.’
Our latest episode is now live on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and all major podcast platforms. And guess what? The transcript is available below for your reading pleasure. Happy listening!
You can find more about Sam Ruckle and her practice on her website – https://www.papercraneofhope.com/
You make sure you check out her YouTube channel – https://www.youtube.com/c/papercraneofhope
Transcript:
SAM SELLERS:
[00:01] Hello and welcome to Inside the Therapy Room. I’m your host, Sam Sellers. I’m a registered therapist, a wife and a fur mama, and I’m passionate about breaking down the barriers and stigma attached to therapy.
I want to begin by honouring the traditional custodians of the land we live and work on. Today, we have one Sam in Gubbi Gubbi country, and the other Sam is on Gundungurra land. We pay our respects to the Elders past, present and emerging, for they hold the memories, the traditions and cultures of our First Nations people. We must always remember that the land below our feet is, was and always will be Aboriginal land.
[00:55] Today we’re chatting with Sam Ruckle. Sam is a self-confessed introvert and empath who loves nothing more than a good ache in the belly laugh. But more than anything, she loves providing a safe counselling space for gentle souls, introverts, INFJs, empaths and neurodivergent people. This is her joy and passion, bringing hope and healing to the broken hearted.
Sam first started Paper Crane of Hope as a community development project, leading Paper Cranes in her community to spread this message of hope and healing. It quickly evolved into what it is today, an online therapy space. Tune in to hear her share about working with those who have gentle souls, about her own experience of understanding herself more, why it is so important for introverts and INFJs to have a therapy space. And she smashes a myth around this misunderstood group of people. We hope you enjoy joining us Inside the Therapy Room.
[02:02] Welcome, Sam. How are you going?
SAM RUCKLE:
Good, thank you. How are you?
SAM SELLERS:
[02:06] I’m great, thank you. I’m just noticing the stark difference in our attire today. You are in sunny Queensland, aren’t you?
SAM RUCKLE:
I am, yeah.
SAM SELLERS:
What part of Queensland are you in?
SAM RUCKLE:
The Sunshine Coast, so about maybe 10 minutes from Noosa.
SAM SELLERS:
Oh, very nice.
SAM RUCKLE:
Yeah.
SAM SELLERS:
I’ve never been to Noosa, but I know it is the ritzy part of Queensland. It’s like, isn’t it the place to be? It’s like the ritzy part.
SAM RUCKLE:
[02:37] Yeah, well, I don’t live in Noosa.
SAM SELLERS:
Nice clarification.
SAM RUCKLE:
I do live by the coast, though, and I feel extremely grateful about that.
SAM SELLERS:
It would be beautiful.
SAM RUCKLE:
It is.
SAM SELLERS:
And I know because, so you own Paper Crane of Hope, correct?
SAM RUCKLE:
Yeah.
SAM SELLERS:
And part of that sort of came out of leaving sweet little paper cranes with little messages. And I think you’re in a wonderful part of the country to be able to do that. Beaches, parks, all sorts of beautiful natural spaces.
SAM RUCKLE:
[03:16] Yes. I started leaving paper cranes in Croydon in Melbourne.
SAM SELLERS:
Oh, wow.
SAM RUCKLE:
[03:23] So that’s where Paper Crane of Hope started. And then I moved up to the sunny coast about six years ago and started leaving paper cranes around my local area.
SAM SELLERS:
[03:33] So, I’m excited about this episode because the group of people that you work with, I would probably label them broadly as gentle souls. But I tend to fall into some of these categories, which makes me sort of nice and excited to have a chat to you. So, the people who fall into that category that you work with, introverts, INFJs, empaths, HSPs or highly sensitive people. Tell me a little bit about who they are, what they look like. People probably are hearing acronyms and letters and having absolutely no idea what we’re talking about. So, give us a bit of a lowdown.
SAM RUCKLE:
[04:18] Okay. So, I just wanted to share first that when I started Paper Crane of Hope and I was leaving paper cranes around the community with little messages, the people that found those paper cranes, and we formed a bit of a community on Instagram, turned out to be introverts. They seem to naturally fall under that introvert, empath, INFJ, gentle soul category, which is where my passion for that really started. And that’s also when I personally learned that I was an INFJ. So, I started sharing about being an INFJ and I had a lot of my community resonate with that.
SAM SELLERS:
I love a natural progression.
SAM RUCKLE:
Yeah. Would you like to know what an INFJ is?
SAM SELLERS:
Yes, please tell us. I’m also an INFJ, so I know what it is. But please tell everybody else what that is.
SAM RUCKLE:
[05:19] Okay. So, it’s part of the Myers Briggs personality testing, where Myers Briggs apparently have 16 different personality types that people could fall under. And the INFJ personality type apparently only makes up about 1% of the world’s population. And so, what I found happened when I learned that I was an INFJ, everything started to really make sense in my life and the way that I thought or viewed the world, and why for most of my life I always felt like a fish out of water and like I just didn’t completely fit in with the people around me. So, I’ve always had amazing friendships, but I just always felt like I was that a little bit different, the odd one out, not quite gelling with everyone else.
[06:18] And that’s probably why I became passionate about providing counselling for the INFJ because I understood that experience that they would have gone through. And I find that a lot of people who do find out they’re INFJs, it’s a bit of a light bulb moment for them. It’s an aha moment. And they just want to explore that and get to know themselves a bit better.
SAM SELLERS:
[06:45] And I absolutely can resonate with that. I remember the moment that I found out. I don’t know that whether it was a light bulb moment, it was more of like a weight off my shoulders. There was a relief about it. People would tell me, “Oh, it’s you’re just like a walking contradiction. Like you say one thing, you can say another, like how can you hold both of those views, both of those perspectives, sort of seeing the world in two different ways or multiple different ways?” And so, I think it was a relief. There was a reason. I think I also hear when people sort of find that space that it is quite a moment for them.
SAM RUCKLE:
[07:39] It is. And then because it’s such a rare personality type, it’s amazing that people can then find each other on the internet, and find a safe space where they can chat with each other and ask like, “do you think like this as well?” And then just having that conversation.
SAM SELLERS:
[07:59] Yeah. There is a running theme in my world now, which is that concept of to be seen is to be understood. And I think that very much resonates in this world of people because it can feel insular and like you’re the only person who has this unique perspective on the world or thinks like this or feels like this. And so, being able to connect with like-minded people, it does create that sense of validation and understanding that you don’t get with people who are not that personality type or who don’t think like that.
[08:41] So, we threw another acronym out there, HSP. Let’s define that for everybody.
SAM RUCKLE:
[08:49] So, that is a highly sensitive person. And I find that a lot of INFJs tend to fall under that HSP empath umbrella. My understanding of an HSP is someone that is extra sensitive to perhaps noises or touch or crowded places, all of those like sensory overload.
SAM SELLERS:
Are you a HSP Sam?
SAM RUCKLE:
[09:21] I would say that I am. But over the years, I’ve learned to manage that. And so, I don’t feel it affect me in the same way that it once did.
SAM SELLERS:
[09:33] Yeah, I think it moves and it has progression and it sort of has peaks and troughs at different stages of life. I’m also an HSP. My therapist, I love the way that he describes it, which is that HSPs have a finely tuned nervous system. So, we feel everything just more intensely. Everything is just more intense. Taste is more intense. Sound is more intense. Everything is just more finely tuned, which I love because it’s like a superpower almost. It doesn’t feel like a superpower sometimes when the sun is so bright that I cannot even bear to have my eyes open.
[10:16] But it can be things like that that make it difficult to be out and about with people who don’t understand that you’re not just being dramatic. You’re not just making a big deal out of something. You’re not just drawing attention to yourself or something like that. But it’s a real visceral, physical response for a lot of people.
SAM RUCKLE:
[10:41] Yeah, absolutely. And that’s why I moved to the beach.
SAM SELLERS:
Amazing! I mean, to be honest, I’m so not a beach person. I understand people’s love of the beach because it’s beautiful. It’s picturesque. The breeze, the sound of the water. I just can’t get my head around sand.
SAM RUCKLE:
[11:01] I knew you were going to say that because a lot of people have that.
SAM SELLERS:
[11:03] Yeah. I mean, and sand for me is a sensory thing. Like it gets stuck everywhere. And like, I don’t know how if I’m walking on the sand, it ends up in my hair. And just little sort of frustrating things like that turn into just like, a whole hour can be just like ruined because I’ve now got sand in my hair and it’s feeling like I’m being attacked. So, little things like that that like people just go “it’s just sand”. But for some people it’s not just sand. I’m probably sharing way too much here. Everybody is getting a sudden insight into my life.
[11:51] It is a very sort of unique group of people who fit into this category. And they are often misunderstood, I think. So, I think it’s great to have therapists like you who not only specialise in it, but who are also sitting in that spectrum themselves on some level. There is that natural understanding that comes from that. I mentioned to one of the psychologists who came to see me whilst I was in hospital recently, and I mentioned to them that I was a HSP and they glazed over, no response, no understanding, nothing. And so, it’s just one of those things that for people who are a HSP or who are introverts, that can be such a huge part of their life.
[12:51] And you don’t want to have to educate your therapist about that. So, I think it’s great that there are therapists out there like you who are specialising in this space and creating safety for people who don’t necessarily get a lot of safety in other places, particularly clinical spaces, I think.
SAM RUCKLE:
[13:13] Yeah. I also find that for say an INFJ or an empath, that is people that all their friends and family and random strangers might turn to, to offload them and to in a way get free counselling and to hold that load for other people. And then they find they don’t have anyone that they can talk to and offload for themselves. And a lot of people have told me that when they’ve come into a counselling session and they’ve got this space, firstly, they find it weird because they’re the one that can talk and not listen.
SAM SELLERS:
Self-spotlight.
SAM RUCKLE:
[13:58] Yes. And secondly, just how relieving that is, that “oh my gosh, for an hour, I can talk about myself. I’m not going to get interrupted. I’m not going to have someone say, ‘oh, I’ve gone through that’ and change the story and make it about them”.
SAM SELLERS:
[14:13] Absolutely. I would completely agree. And then they become therapists and make people pay them to listen to. So, we then get to do that for a living. And one of my favourite things is hearing people’s stories. I think it’s why we probably all got into this space. So, now before we sort of get into the nitty gritty, you have a YouTube channel where you chat about all of this, correct?
SAM RUCKLE:
I do. Yeah.
SAM SELLERS:
[14:41] Tell us a little bit about it.
SAM RUCKLE:
[14:43] Ok, so my channel is called Paper Crane of Hope and I do videos talking about being an INFJ and other topics as well. Introverts, empaths, some personal things. I recently did a video on me going to Toastmasters for the first time.
SAM SELLERS:
[15:06] So, I think that even just having that is great because it is sort of a lead in for people because counselling can be a daunting space even for those who maybe don’t fall into this gentle soul category. Counselling is daunting. And so, I love when therapists have things out there that sort of give you a little bit of insight into what you might get or what you might expect and give you information at the same time. And it’s great also for partners or family or friends to be able to watch those things about their loved ones as well.
SAM RUCKLE:
[15:45] Yeah. I also find it’s great for some of the psychoeducation that people receive. So, then when they’re in a therapy session, they have a full hour to talk about themselves.
SAM SELLERS:
[15:58] Yeah, absolutely. There’s no sort of need to be educating either way.
SAM RUCKLE:
[16:04] I mean, psychoeducation still happens. That’s needed. But I love that there’s this growing resource on my YouTube channel that I can refer people to that they can watch. I do want to share as well about counselling for an INFJ and your experience when you told this psychologist about being a HSP and how you get it. I find that the experience for INFJs is that the way they think, their cognitive function is so different than the 15 other personality types. And their thinking, or I should say our thinking, is going so, so, so fast. It’s very intuitive. We’re seeing patterns that when we’re trying to share a story, sometimes to get from point A to point Z, it’s very much happening.
[17:02] You need to share because there’s patterns and you want to explain it all or you just want to do it from here to here. But if you don’t understand what an INFJ is, that can be really confusing for a person to even understand how a person got from point A to point Z, or to even have the patience to understand why are they telling me all of this? What has this got to do with anything? When to an INFJ, it all makes sense, and they just need to formulate what is happening. And sometimes for an INFJ to even understand how they’re feeling about something and to get clarity on a situation, they need to verbalize everything that they’re thinking so that they can feel what they’re feeling.
SAM SELLERS:
[17:46] Absolutely. I think even I always will describe to my clients that my brain is a little bit like a spider’s web, and it is working on overdrive most of the time. And there will be moments where I just must spend like five seconds to collect my thoughts to say something because I’m not just responding to what they’ve just said. I’m connecting three other dots and I’m thinking about something that they said five minutes ago that I’m going to bring up in five minutes time because I want to clarify and check on something as well. And so, there’s sometimes half a dozen things that are all going on while for some people it can just be very much misunderstood and can be dismissed as well. I think I noticed that in a lot of relationships where one person might fit into this category is that it’s misunderstood a lot.
[18:42] But I completely get the verbalizing as well. Sometimes I’ll say something to my wife, and she’ll be like, “of course I’m going to do that”. And I was like, “but I just need to know that I’ve verbalized it to you for my own benefit”. And so, it’s just like little things like that can cause a lot of friction in relationships though. To be able to get that understanding whether it be through therapy or through other sort of resources like your YouTube channel or podcasts or books and things like that, I think is needed currently where understanding is paramount to all of our relationships.
[19:20] So, while we’re on the topic, what is it like for people who fit into this category of introverts, INFJs, HSPs? What is it like for them? What are they going to expect in a therapy session in your virtual therapy session?
SAM RUCKLE:
[19:37] Okay. Firstly, there is a lot of laughter.
SAM SELLERS:
Yeah, great. I love it. Humour is the best. All the time.
SAM RUCKLE:
I love using humour in therapy. I think it’s so powerful.
SAM SELLERS:
Yeah. I also find though, just side note on humour, I find that people who fall into this category also tend to have a specific type of humour and it is not always received very well.
SAM RUCKLE:
It’s not always socially acceptable.
SAM SELLERS:
[20:04] Yes. My therapist tends to say we fall into the category at times of like morbid or dark humour. So, that’s not always socially acceptable or well-received by people. So, I think even just having that space in therapy to be able to laugh and have somebody laugh at your jokes instead of somebody cringing at your jokes.
SAM RUCKLE:
[20:32] Exactly. Or even having light humour. Say if I point out something to a client about their bodily reaction and mirroring that to them or showing them, “do you realize that you do this when such and such happens?” and then it can become quite humorous, and then you can almost feel like a weight coming off their shoulders. And you’re right about the morbid jokes. I find many INFJs are in caring roles. Such as counselling, social work, nurses, occupational therapists, people who are seeing heavy and at times dark things. And I know for me, when I worked in youth corrections, I came across a lot of heavy things. But the staff members, our coping mechanism was dark humour. And if you don’t work in that environment, you just don’t get it.
SAM SELLERS:
[21:30] Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. So, there’s lots of humour. What else can you expect?
SAM RUCKLE:
[21:37] So, in the first session, I do find it’s very much about getting to know that person’s story, getting an overall understanding of who they are, building that trust. If someone has gone through trauma, for example, it’s so important that there’s trust and rapport with that person so that they feel safe to be able to share. So, it is very much about getting to know the person and their story and what’s happening. I will often give that person some strategies that they could try at home after the session. Some mindfulness exercises, maybe some readings. Although I’ve learned that graphic handouts work better than textbooks.
[22:24] So, I used to give out like a textbook chapter on, for example, the window of tolerance. On Reddit, which is fine. And then I found a brilliant graphic handout on window of tolerance. And everyone just loves that. And then after the first session, I like to see myself as a bit of a holistic therapist and I’ll use whichever therapeutic approach I feel is going to be best for the client. And I do like to ask for feedback from the clients on if they felt like that technique is working for them or not. And I really love and appreciate the honesty from them. And I also find it’s a learning thing for them as well, because many empaths, introverts, INFJs, that category are people pleasers. And so, it’s great for them to be able to speak up if something’s not working.
[23:18] But I do find that I tend to fall into using internal family systems or parts work therapy. And that seems to really resonate for this gentle soul umbrella of people.
SAM SELLERS:
[23:33] I love that because I think that that sense of autonomy and being able to sort of “they are in the driver’s seat” because it would be easy for this category of people to sort of sit back and let the therapist lead, let them sort of “this is what is going to be really helpful”. And whether it’s helpful or not, they’re going to do it anyway. And so, I think that ability to sort of reinforce, “hey, this is all about you, as uncomfortable as that is. This is all about you. You are in the driver’s seat. I am just sitting alongside for the ride and potentially giving some options and some suggestions. But ultimately, you are the one in control of that. And if you turn left, then I know that turning left is working for us”. Instead of trying to continually go down paths that are not beneficial and are not working. So, I love that sense of autonomy that it gives.
[24:38] And I mean, we always tend to use the word control in a negative light, but I think you should feel like you have a sense of control over your own therapy sessions and how they go. So, I love that.
SAM RUCKLE:
[24:52] Yeah, I do like to remind them that they are the expert of their own house.
SAM SELLERS:
And I hate being referred to as an expert. It’s gross. I don’t know about you, but anytime somebody refers to me as an expert, I’m just like, yuck. I don’t want to be known as an expert. I want to be known as somebody who is passionate about certain things. And so, I learn a lot about it. And I love working with those groups of people. And there are certain areas where we have lived experience as well. And that adds a certain dynamic to it as well. But I much prefer to empower my clients to think that they are the experts.
SAM RUCKLE:
[25:33] Exactly, yeah. And I do find with the INFJ, they are so intuitive and self-reflective. But they just needed that space to get clarity to talk. And I should also mention as well that in a lot of our sessions, I do like to bring people back to their body. I find that INFJs, empaths, gentle souls really struggle to be in their body, whether that’s from trauma or something else. They just find it hard to connect with their body. So, often when they are sharing a story and they are jumping, at times I may pause them for a moment and to ask, “where are you feeling this? What does that feel like?” And help them to connect back into their physical body. Because for an INFJ, the weakest cognitive function is called SE, which is that sensing, that being aware of your physical surroundings.
[26:37] And so, INFJs who can learn mindfulness techniques and can connect back in within themselves are a lot happier and more at peace because they’re not stuck in this thinking and feeling cycle loop. So, when we’re talking, we do often talk about emotions, where they’re feeling it, in the shoulders, their chest, their tummy. What does it look like? What’s the picture that they have? And then at the end of the session, they’ll often say that “Oh, that heavy chest rock feeling I have has lifted”. And so, they’re able to become more aware of what’s happening for them as they process their feelings.
SAM SELLERS:
[27:20] And I would imagine for a lot of people, particularly if therapy is new to them, that that process of holding and pausing to feel where that is in their body physiologically, that that would be a really uncomfortable and at times painful thing to do because they’re often not doing it. They’re avoiding it for a large variety of reasons. But I would imagine for a lot of them, particularly if this is brand new, therapy is brand new for them. And if there is trauma in their history, that that process would involve a lot of discomfort.
SAM RUCKLE:
[28:00] Yeah, but it’s quite healing and powerful because I find a lot of my clients, they’re well-resourced in that. They love personal development, love reading about psychology. They understand a lot of things from that logical and intellectual level, but they just haven’t allowed themselves to pause and go through it.
SAM SELLERS:
[28:24] My therapist and I sort of joke that my HSP and INFJ traits, personality traits, tend to make me a great therapist because I read a lot. I’m always wanting to improve, know about personal development, know about new approaches, all those sorts of things. But they make me an awful client because I’m very comfortable sitting with clients and holding space for them. But even though I’ve done this for six and a half years or something, it is a very uncomfy space for me sitting on the other side of the couch, so to speak.
[29:07] Before we jump into smashing some myths, which is always my favourite part of the episode, you have a couple of products on your website. Tell us about those quickly.
SAM RUCKLE:
[29:19] I do. Firstly, I have a free e-book out now. And it’s a 30 days of gratitude practice. I recently went to a professional development training, and it was on gratitude. And it was all about the research that has been shown about just how effective having a daily practice of gratitude is. But the thing is, with gratitude, it does need to be a daily practice for at least 30 days to see the benefits. So, I created these 30 days of gratitude, where each day there’s a different exercise that you can do to live more of a life with gratitude and thankfulness.
[30:03] And I also have a building assertiveness workbook. I find many INFJs, they struggle to be assertive in their life. And so, I’ve created this workbook with exercises that you can do to become a more assertive person. I also have an e-book on journaling. I am so passionate about journaling. Journaling was an absolute lifesaver for me when I was a teenager, and it was my teenage self that taught me about journaling. So, I wrote this book in honour of her and in honour of how far I have come since being that 14-year-old girl journaling under the tree every weekend.
SAM SELLERS:
[30:48] I love that. I think it’s these things like journaling and particularly gratitude, they get thrown around a lot as like fad things, particularly social media, but they are proven, researched things that work. Yes, it requires intention. And yes, you must do it consistently to see the benefits. And yes, it’s not going to work for everybody. Nothing is ever going to work for everybody. But they are proven tools that work. They are not just something that you see on social media as this fad thing to pull out a journal. They are real things that are beneficial for people. I must say assertiveness is one thing that I never had to grapple with, but I had the flip side that my assertiveness was viewed as aggressive.
SAM RUCKLE:
The other extreme?
SAM SELLERS:
[31:45] Yeah, the other extreme. That just because I can speak confidently to somebody and say what I need in terms of that relationship or whatever it is, that that somehow makes me dominant or aggressive. And I mean, I think we are jumping into a rabbit hole of living in the patriarchy, but let’s not go down that. We’ll be here for another hour.
SAM RUCKLE:
We’ll do another podcast on that.
SAM SELLERS:
[32:10] Yeah, I know. Whole another podcast on that. So, I’ve been asking everybody, it’s my favourite part of the episode, is to think about a myth around the group of people that you work with and to smash it. Because there are myths about so many things, so many things that are misunderstood, and I want to crush them.
SAM RUCKLE:
Okay, I am completely ready to crush.
SAM SELLERS:
Amazing. What myth are we smashing?
SAM RUCKLE:
[32:41] I am going to crush the introvert myth that an introvert is shy, quiet, is standing in the corner in a room, because that is not an introvert. Yes, there are introverts who are like that, but there are also extroverts who are like that. And that is why I experienced a complete burnout in my life, because for a long time I thought I was an extrovert. Because I was confident, I was loud, some would call me annoying. I wanted to be the centre of attention at times. This is my younger self. I completely burnt out because I was living a life as an extrovert. What an introvert and an extrovert is, is where you get your energy from. An introvert gains their energy from being alone, from having time to yourself, time to reflect, time to be in your own little hermit bubble.
[33:45] And an extrovert gains their energy from being around people and from socializing. There are all these studies that show that the brain looks different for an introvert and an extrovert, and it’s to do with the dopamine levels. And so, for an introvert to gain their feel-good hormones and to re-energize, they need to be on their own. And then the more they’re around other people, those levels get lower and lower. For an extrovert, for them to have those feel-good hormones, they need to be around people. And the more they’re alone, the lower that will get for them.
SAM SELLERS:
[34:21] Yes, I love that. I love smashing this myth because it is complete and utter rubbish. And I completely get that feeling of am I an introvert? Am I an extrovert? Because growing up, I generally was a confident person. I did musical theatre; I did debate and public speaking and all of those things that put you front and centre for a lot of things. But I was so not an extrovert. And now both my wife and I are introverts, and we describe ourselves as raging introverts. Because I don’t like to see it as a negative. It doesn’t need to be something that you have to shy away from sort of addressing or embracing. Whenever I talk to clients about introvert versus extrovert, I sort of like to think of those two terms as your battery. And so, it’s like, what is recharging your battery essentially?
[35:25] And I think it then gets people out of that mindset that how you view someone doesn’t automatically mean whether they’re an extrovert or an introvert. Because it doesn’t matter. I love the memes where it’s like, if you see a bunch of introverts together it’s like a party. There’s understanding and there’s an ease about it. But you put a bunch of introverts with a bunch of extroverts, and you’ve got a very different story because you have people who are wired differently. And so, I love smashing this myth. Good pick because it’s crap, I think.
[36:03] And I think it’s crap to think that extroverts are always bubbly and full of life and don’t need downtime and should be expected to be with you all the time. I think that is just as damaging as thinking that introverts hate people, essentially.
SAM RUCKLE:
[36:18] Exactly, because we love socialising too. I love socialising with friends. I love going out for dinner. I love doing all of that. I mean, it depends on the environment, of course. But you’re right, it’s important that the extrovert also learns to love their own company. And I could imagine that during the COVID lockdowns that would have been so difficult for a lot of extroverts because suddenly they were forced into a situation where they had to learn to love their own company. And I know a lot of my introvert friends, they loved it. They thrived.
SAM SELLERS:
[36:51] We loved it. We just thought it was the best thing ever.
SAM RUCKLE:
[36:55] Yeah, I was sad that the Queensland lockdowns only lasted for two weeks. I was not ready to come out of my shell. I mean, so sorry to all the Melbourne people for what happened.
SAM SELLERS:
I know, and they’re probably thinking, “how dare you think that lockdown was amazing? It was awful”.
SAM RUCKLE:
I’m glad I didn’t go through that. I’m sorry if you went through that.
SAM SELLERS:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and obviously we joke about loving lockdown, and we obviously recognise that the reason we had lockdown was obviously not good and heartbreaking for a lot of people. I think it was an interesting space to sort of see some people thrived in that environment and other people lost their mind in that environment and they were the ones sharing humorous memes about not surviving or things like that.
SAM RUCKLE:
[37:47] What I found interesting about that time and with what I was seeing on the internet is before COVID, there’s the saying of an introvert living in an extrovert’s world. Books about it, about the struggles for an introvert having to live in this world that is designed and set up for an extrovert, including workspaces where it’s all like open plan, all of that. That is just overstimulating for an introvert. And then suddenly after COVID, I was seeing memes about extroverts living in an introvert’s world and suddenly it was flipped and they’re able to experience how an introvert may have been feeling like within their body and their psyche.
SAM SELLERS:
[38:28] Absolutely. I don’t know that I sort of thought about it in that reverse sort of terminology, but that’s sort of what it was. It was very much sort of a flipped narrative. I have loved this. This has been great. I think it’s a really misunderstood group of people. I think there was probably another half a dozen myths that we could have smashed about each of those sections because it is just a really misunderstood group of people and it’s a shame because they’re also a really, we kept referring to them as gentle souls because they do often hold emotion, other people’s emotion quite personally and quite heavily. And so, that coupled with the misunderstanding about who they are and how they’re wired can create a lot of pain and a lot of hurt for people.
[39:23] So, I think it is important that there are these spaces virtually, there’s resources in terms of your YouTube channel and podcasts and things like that that create a sense of ease about it where there’s no need to explain, over explain almost, why. The who, what, where, why and how, that sort of thing. I think it’s great that there are these spaces now. And because I think that a lot of people wouldn’t necessarily think that this is a niche, that there would be someone who would specialise in working with this group of people. I think we think kids, adults, couples, those broad-spectrum things, but there are people out there who work with much more insular sort of groups of people.
SAM RUCKLE:
[40:08] Well, I realised when I started my practice, I love all people, all ages, I love all genders, I love diverse people. And so, I didn’t want to niche myself just for mums or whatever, but I felt really drawn to this personality type. Gentle souls.
SAM SELLERS:
[40:28] And I think those sorts of things tend to happen organically. Everybody that I’ve sort of spoken to, we sort of never set out to specialise in a certain area generally, it just tends to come to us, and it tends to come quite organically, whether we like it or not sometimes. And so, I think it’s great that there are more specific and insular sort of niches, so people know where to go when they need someone. So, I love that. Thanks for joining me.
SAM RUCKLE:
Thank you for having me.
SAM SELLERS:
[41:01] It’s been so nice.
SAM RUCKLE:
And we didn’t acknowledge the fact that we have the same name.
SAM SELLERS:
I know, yes. How did we get to the end of the episode that they’re getting double Sam? Which I just think is great and I’m going to have to work out a way to distinguish that in the intro. So, if you’re getting to the end of the episode and hopefully the intro is good because it’s always a little bit hard. I think we might go with like Queensland Sam and New South Wales Sam. It’s been so great.
SAM RUCKLE:
[41:33] Thank you for having me. I am so excited about this.
SAM SELLERS:
I’ve loved it. It’s been a great chat and I feel like there are other sort of little avenues that could have been chatted about. So, if anybody is interested, Instagram, we’re both relatively prominent on Instagram. So, there’ll be lots of different avenues and there might even be other spaces where we get to chat. Maybe we’ll do an Instagram live or something one day.
SAM RUCKLE:
Yeah, that’d be great.
SAM SELLERS:
It’ll be fun. Yeah. Amazing. Thanks, Sam.
SAM RUCKLE:
Thank you, Sam.
SAM SELLERS:
[42:10] We hope you enjoyed joining us Inside the Therapy Room. Thanks for listening.