Are you a man? Maybe you just have men in your world? Perhaps you are a guy who has never been to therapy before and has no idea what it would be like. This episode is for you!
In today’s episode Matt lets you in on what it is like for men to seek and engage in therapy. Where we discuss why role modelling as a therapist is so powerful, Matt shares the challenges for men seeking therapy and what misconceptions there are about men and emotions.
Our latest episode is now live on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and all major podcast platforms. And guess what? The transcript is available below for your reading pleasure. Happy listening!
To find out more about Matt Musgrave head to his website – https://www.strongspacecounselling.com/
Transcript
SAM SELLERS:
[00:11] Hello and welcome to Inside the Therapy Room. I’m your host, Sam Sellers. I’m a registered therapist, a wife and fur mama, and I am passionate about breaking down the barriers and stigma attached to therapy. I want to begin by honoring the traditional custodians of the land we live and work on. Today, Matt is on Ngunnawal land and Sam is on Gundungurra land. We pay our respects to the elders’ past, present, and emerging, for they hold the memories, the traditions and cultures of our First Nations people. We must always remember that the land below our feet is, was and always will be Aboriginal land.
[00:52] Today we are chatting to Matt Musgrave, who is the founder and principal counsellor at Strong Space Counselling, an online private practice specializing in creating safe spaces for men and fathers to be their full complex selves. Tune in to hear Matt chat about challenges facing men in therapy, what it’s like for men to learn how to access and integrate emotions into their world, and the role Matt plays in modeling vulnerabilities and behavior to his clients. He also shares a myth that he would like to smash, and this one is a doozy, so make sure you stick around for that. We hope you enjoy joining us inside the therapy room.
[01:36] Welcome, Matt. How are you going today?
MATT MUSGRAVE:
Really, really good.
SAM SELLERS:
Friday afternoon, we’re recording this Friday afternoon. Do you work weekends?
MATT MUSGRAVE:
I do not work weekends, and I have Fridays off clients, so I’m coming in fresh. It’s good, it’s a pretty good day.
SAM SELLERS:
[01:54] Nice. I don’t see clients on Monday, so I have a long weekend on the opposite side of things. But it is nice. It’s nice to settle into the week or settle out of the week.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
Out of the week. I like to land. I like to go from the weekend and dive right on in and see my clients and power through Monday to Thursday and then come Friday and just go, oh, breathe.
SAM SELLERS:
[02:23] You are the total opposite to me. I like to ease on in.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
Fair enough.
SAM SELLERS:
[02:26] Ease on into the week. Ease on in. So, Matt, you are here to chat to us about working with men, working with fathers, and you work solely online, correct?
MATT MUSGRAVE:
I do. 100% online.
SAM SELLERS:
Amazing. How nice.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[02:43] Yeah, it’s really good. I wasn’t 100% sure how it was going to be received, given that I was sort of working in person prior to that, and I’ve only ever done in-person work with men before that. So, then we transitioned into the second pandemic lockdown here in Canberra, which was like 18 months or something after the first one. So, we had a solid gap. And then I just moved everything online. Then I came back to face-to-face after the lockdown was lifted, and only one out of my 12 or something clients at the time came back to in-person. I was doing the rest of them, they continued online or over the phone. So, I just said, “why am I paying rent?” and just canned the office and have gone fully online. And then it’s just booming. It’s great because I get to work with guys across Australia. So, opens my capacity rather than just seeing Canberra-based clients.
SAM SELLERS:
[03:36] It creates a space for flexibility as well, because you’re not stuck in a certain time window or anything like that. And when we think of Australia, we have multiple different time zones as well. So, being able to cater for that makes a huge difference.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[03:53] It’s actually really helpful because I’ve got some windows during the day, which get a little bit harder to fill, I’ll say, compared to my afternoons or early mornings or whatever. And my Perth clients, they love it because for them it’s early morning. And it’s the times I can’t get filled from East Coast. So, it works really well for my clients.
SAM SELLERS:
[04:13] Yeah, absolutely. And I find online counselling great. And I think that there is this sort of stigma attached to it, that it is somehow not as effective as in-person, but there are very few things that can’t be done in an online counselling session. So, and most sort of approaches or methods that most therapists use can be adapted to be done online. So, it just adds so much flexibility for people and safety for them to be able to stay at home, stay in their safe space and still be able to get the therapy and get a therapist that actually suits them as opposed to just the one that it’s in the same town.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[04:57] It’s really accessible. The feedback that I’ve got, I mean, we know the research has been really clear, especially since the lockdowns where everybody moved online for that huge chunk of time. The research has been clear. Zoom, online phone counselling is equally as effective as in-person counselling. It’s just like everything, it’s entirely dependent on the client finding the right fit for them and what works for them. So, it’s really, really helpful. I’ve got a lot of guys, I’ve worked with a lot of guys who are like, “Oh, it just doesn’t feel right not getting that connection.” I’m like, great, awesome. Let’s find you someone local to you. Let’s find someone who’s going to be better suited on person. I’ve had guys go from Zoom over to phone and loved it. I’ve had guys go from phone over to Zoom and loved it. And once they find the right fit, they just stick with it and it’s really good.
[05:49] But I was going to say is the fact that I’m able to meet with so many different guys from across Australia and so many of them are like, “Oh, I’m so glad that I can work with you” or “your style really suits me” or “your modality that you’re using it’s not anywhere in my town or in my city” or people are booked out for so far in advance. So, I go, great. You know, you can be in Adelaide, you can be in Melbourne, you can be in Brisbane, you can be in Sydney and still work with me. And it works really, really well, I think.
SAM SELLERS:
[06:19] Absolutely. It’s great. I love online counselling.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[06:23] And I suppose the other thing that’s coming up for me as well is, a lot of my men they have a hard time enough with counselling. And with therapy as it is, right? So, for them to be able to take an extra half an hour at lunchtime and just go and sit in their car and do it on the phone or put their phone on the dashboard and have the Zoom looking at them or whatever they’re doing in the car on their lunch break, or walking around the lake, or if they are at home they can go and make themselves a cup of coffee. And if I’m on the phone, I’ve got no idea what they’re doing, right? So, they just get to be really relaxed and calm. They don’t have to worry about other people around them, what they’re doing. It just looks like they’re on a phone call, right?
[07:06] But if you’re being seen going into a therapy office or if you’ve got to leave for an extra half an hour off work, so you’ve got to drive to the office and get there, then you have to explain that. So, I get a lot of feedback from guys that they’re hesitant at first because they also think the narrative is in-person therapy is the most effective. And yet, eventually, after they either try it or after a little while, the feedback is always the same. “I really didn’t think it was going to be as good as it was, and it was.” So, I take it.
SAM SELLERS:
[07:33] Absolutely. The ease of it is fantastic. So, I think it’s great.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
Exactly.
SAM SELLERS:
[07:40] So, Matt, tell me a little bit about what drew you to working specifically with men and fathers. Where does that passion come from?
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[7:49] Oh, gosh. How much time do we have?
SAM SELLERS:
Loaded question.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[07:52] Loaded question. If I’m completely honest, I remember having a conversation with my wife before I started the business early last year. And at that time, I’d already been working for a year in another group practice, a private practice, and I was seeing pretty much anyone. It was a sex therapy practice. So, I was seeing women, men, trans individuals. I was working with like poly couples. I was working with sex workers. I was working with you name it. And I was just thrown in the deep end at that point. And I loved it. I absolutely loved it. And then, so I was like, “oh, if I go out on my own what should I do? What’s my niche? What am I really interested in?”
[08:31] At that point, I’d spent six years leading up to that point, exclusively working with men in a completely different sector, case management, probation parole, criminology, in and out of the criminal justice sector, working facilitating groups for violent men, basically. And so, I was like, “oh, do I really want to just work with men? Really? I’ve been doing that for so long.” But then there was just this really strong part of me. I was like, “look, that’s your bread and butter. That’s where you feel most confident. You know, you can always expand out later as you go. You can always add to the business as it comes.” And now, 18 months later, I just absolutely love working with the guys and the fathers that I’ve worked with. And I don’t see myself changing because it’s so needed and I just, I’m now like starting to train and help and sort of peer supervise a lot of other guys who are just getting into the counselling space and are working with men.
[09:34] So, I’m starting to build this little community of counsellors and people who really like love working with guys. And I’ve fallen head over heels in love with it. And just don’t see myself finishing up working exclusively with guys for a long time, I think.
SAM SELLERS:
[09:50] I think when it feels natural and you feel excited about something in that space, coming in to your virtual or literal therapy room, I think that’s when you know that you’ve hit your sweet spot, when it doesn’t feel forced and you sort of go, “Oh gosh, not another one of those, not another guy, not another dad, like, jeez.” I think when there is that “yes!” there’s still excitement, that’s when you know you’ve hit your stride and you’ve hit your sweet spot.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[10:20] Yeah. Spending six years in the criminal justice sector, working right the pointy end with some really high-risk clients. Let’s use a non-derogatory term for that cohort. But facilitating domestic violence, men’s behaviour change programs, just like really challenging, really hyper risky stuff where you’re constantly thinking about safety and managing risk and those sorts of places. Counselling is kind of like a breath of fresh air, you know? I come into it and I’m just like, “oh my God, they all want to be here.”
SAM SELLERS:
Yes. There’s a choice about it all of a sudden.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[10:56] There’s a choice. And if they don’t want to work with me and they want to move on, awesome. They can do that. They’re not court mandated or anything to be here. So, a huge weight off my shoulders where I come in and I get to work with men who really want to be here and they’re my people, right? I’ve been working with some of the same guys now for two and a half years and that seems wild to me but it’s amazing. And I really do. I really do love it.
SAM SELLERS:
[11:22] Yeah, that continuity of care is incredible. That sort of psychotherapy model as opposed to just a clinical six sessions, get in, get out model just creates such a holding of care and support that I think is unlike anything else. So, what sort of issues are you seeing come up? Are you still sort of working with people who are in the sort of world of domestic violence or things like that that you used to be seeing? Are we seeing them in a different capacity?
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[11:55] Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, obviously when you start the business, you’re leveraging all of your old networks and referrals and people who know you and were waiting for you to open, and then all of a sudden you get this influx. And being in the criminal justice sector for so long here in Canberra, domestic violence, clients galore coming through, at least initially. As time’s gone on, it’s been about 18 months now since I sort of started taking on clients. I’ve got a whole spectrum of issues that I kind of work with. Specialising and niching down and working with men, even with fathers, comes with like you’re not just working with grief and loss. You’re not just working with trauma. You’re not just working just in these like really specific niches.
[12:44] I run the whole gamut of clients, which is kind of a nice place to start off in the industry, I think, because I get that experience across the board. The core issues that I kind of see every single day, not to get too deep about it, but there’s a lot of men who have never experienced emotional relational safety in their life, right? Not from their parents, not from their work colleagues, not from their partners, not from their children, right? And whilst a lot of the work I do with those guys is on the ways that they contribute to that in their own lives, right? The way that they hold themselves back, the way that they struggle and fear being vulnerable with those people sharing. What are the things that hold them back? What are they protecting themselves from?
[13:36] There’s also a very real struggle that a lot of people have knowing how to hold emotional space for men, right? So, even when guys do build up the courage and the confidence to step out and show their emotions or be vulnerable with their partners or with their kids, or with someone close to them, friends, family, a lot of it either gets sort of shut down or invalidated or that same old narrative of like, “well, suck it up, be a man” you know? “What do you want me to do about it? I have no idea what to say to you. Let me just try to fix the problem”, kind of thing. Which I don’t think anyone’s doing intentionally. I think there’s just really a huge gap in people’s awareness of how to hold emotional space for men because men have never given anyone capacity to do that. That makes it really hard for them to step out of the same comfort zone that’s actually making them really struggle in their relationships and in their own lives.
[14:37] So, that’s kind of the number one issue that I work with, right? Is what are the ways that we’re holding, the parts of us are holding us back that are protecting us from that fear very validly, right? And still being able to give ourselves the strength and the courage to be able to meet our own needs or ask to have our needs met, right? So, in a lot of ways guys are relearning how to advocate for themselves in their relationships with their parents and with the people around them in a very compassionate and understanding way, which does not come easily when we’ve been invalidated or pushed away. So, that’s the number one thing I’m seeing when I’m working with guys.
SAM SELLERS:
[15:18] I would imagine that there would also be a difficulty in the sense that when we think about guys and emotion or men crying and things like that, there’s almost this fetish of particularly heterosexual women going, “Oh my gosh, I just love when a man cries”, you know? It’s just like it’s almost like they fetishize that sort of act and it’s like, well this should be just a part of you holding a space for somebody else’s experience, of emotion human emotion, not just male emotion, you know?
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[15:59] I really resonate with that. Like I’ve probably not thought about it in that way with that language, but it does, it can often feel like that. And as much as we’re not kink shaming, we’re not like, there’s nothing wrong with parts of us like really enjoying that and seeing that and holding that. But when that part sort of leads the conversation, it can feel really condescending. It can feel really invalidating, right? And when that happens, totally normal, a lot of men just get that shame reinforced around, “well, there is obviously something wrong with me feeling this way” and you don’t know how to handle it. And though that’s not the fault of everyone, one of two things has to happen. Either that person has to be able to hold their own parts back so that they can connect with that man who’s being vulnerable and showing emotion in a way that makes them feel really safe, right? And that takes a lot of work on the part of a partner. And especially we know for women that work can be really hard to do because they’re already holding so much of men’s emotions, right? So, it feels like an extra thing that their partners have to kind of do and manage in order to create safety. So, I totally get that. That’s one of the big struggles.
[17:15] But on the other hand, the one thing that I work with is like how do men who are showing vulnerability, who receive that message from that person relationally, acknowledge, hold respect for, understand that they are going to potentially feel that way or respond in a way that’s not what you like or what you need, and work with the parts of you that feel defensive or aggressive, or are receiving that message that we can’t be emotional. Because that’s one of the biggest things that the guys struggle with is like, “see? you’re not meeting me with her. Look, I’m doing my work and you’re—” It’s just coming at it from a condescending place. That’s not what’s really happening, right? What we can do is we can say, “Yeah, this is not how I wanted you to receive this. And I totally get why you are. Because this is mine and I can hold my own stuff and I can say, ‘hey, when you do that, I feel really condescending. I feel really small and really little. And I know that’s not what you wanted. I know that’s not your intention.’”
SAM SELLERS:
[18:24] Being able to communicate your need in that moment whilst acknowledging the other person’s perspective is so powerful in making that not turn into a conflict or a tit-for-tat situation. Absolutely. I would think that there is a part of your therapy where there would almost be a modelling role for men to be able to see another man be comfortable with emotion, be comfortable setting boundaries, communicating needs, all of those things that they want to learn. There’s sort of that mirroring, modelling sort of thing happening.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[19:02] Definitely. So, it’s one of the things that I wasn’t aware of the extent to which that was going to help my clients. So, when I was in the domestic violence space and I was working facilitating men’s behaviour change groups, it was my role as the only male facilitator, with all other women with men who essentially hated women, right? I had to be that model, right? I had to show the respect, which I would do anyway, right? But at the same time, there was an extra added layer of importance that was put into that space, right? And so, I took that really, really seriously and I spent years and years and years honing that skill of being okay playing second fiddle and not taking up too much space, always offering the female facilitator to step in and share, right? And giving them space to decide whether or not they felt comfortable and safe in particular areas, and just model that for the guys. I wasn’t expecting so much to have to do that in my own counselling practice, as I probably do.
[20:14] So, when you train as a counsellor, you probably remember, Sam, and even as you talk with other counsellors in networking and all those sorts of things, there’s a real taboo around self-disclosure.
SAM SELLERS:
[20:25] Oh, yes. I had a chat with another therapist about bringing lived experience into the room. It is a very hot, contentious topic among therapists.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[20:40] It is. And I love it. I love the topic. Because for me, as a man who is doing a lot of his own work and I’ve spent a long-time kind of coming back to myself and training in this and wanting to be the best facilitator I can be. I’ve come to realise that my male clients, my men, they really love when I share my stories about the things that I do and how I approach challenging situations and what I say to myself and how I think about it, and how I do my parts work and my own healing and unburdening. And you can really walk in a very fine line into just making the session about me. And this is how I would do it. And this is my language. So, a lot of my own professional development and a lot of my own supervision is very much around how much of myself I bring into the space, right? And yet, at the same time, knowing that that’s an incredibly effective way to get other men to start thinking about things differently, that there is a different way to think about the situation.
[21:48] I was working with one particular client recently who was really struggling to not be making connections from his ex-partner’s behaviour, right? And coming up with some pretty, let’s say, wild assumptions around what that meant and what they were trying to do and those sorts of things. And I sort of said, “yeah, I really get it. I really understand. I can see how that part sees this behaviour and this behaviour and this behaviour as equaling this really terrible, problematic thing over here. Totally get that. And I just wanted to offer to you I’ve got a different perspective. I’ve taken those same behaviours, and this is the story I’ve told myself.” Right? Around that. That this is actually what’s happened, and this has been the natural consequence of that and then that’s been brought to your behaviour and that’s actually a really huge opportunity for you to step into this other space. And so, what would the difference be for you if you were to think this way versus this way? Like, what do you think the impact of that’s going to be on you and your system? And it’s like, “I’ve never thought about it like that.” Of course you haven’t. Why would you have? No one’s offered that to you.
[23:00] You can see how when you get fixated on this presumption and assumption over here, that’s actually really disconnecting you from the potential of the safe relationship that you want to build, right? Because it’s protecting you from whatever that means. And over here, if it’s just a natural consequence, and it’s a totally normal and appropriate reaction, and it’s an opportunity for you to really hear and see and connect with your ex-partner around this co-parenting issue, then you can see how that might shape and change the outcome of what actually happens, not needing to defend yourself, not needing to feel like you’re proving yourself or like they’re going against you in some way. And that’s when we started grabbing what is it going on for him that’s holding him back and keeping him focused over here? That’s not going to change overnight. And he knows that. And we’re working on that together. And we catch up every week. And that’s okay, right?
[24:00] But if he doesn’t have someone there like me to challenge, to give alternate options, to interpret things in different kind of ways based on my experience, in a really positive, supporting, safety-making kind of way, a lot of people, and I think a lot of counsellors, would work with a guy like that and just be like, “this guy is paranoid, he’s super intense, this is really scary and problematic” which it might be in some cases. You know, I’m lucky enough to have been working with him. I know it’s not. You know, I know what that’s kind of like. And I know there’s a lot of support for that family, which is backing them both up. So, I can go into that conversation not worrying too much about the safety of it.
SAM SELLERS:
Yeah, absolutely.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[24:43] But ultimately, I still want to be there for him as my client. That’s why it’s really important for me to say, “I get why your part sees these things and equals that. That makes complete sense.” And maybe it’s not the whole story. Maybe there’s more to it. And what does that do for you? And so, that’s one of the things that I work really hard to do in my own practice is be the support for the man, even when I’m challenging or giving an alternate perspective or sort of putting my own stuff into the space. It’s always relevant about what would this small story mean for you? Now that you’ve heard me and how I think about this particular thing, what does it bring up in you? And really reverse it back to them. And it’s a very difficult skill and a very fine line.
SAM SELLERS:
[25:36] Yeah, absolutely. I think self-disclosure has always been for as long as I can remember, a contentious issue. But I think if you’re sitting at either end of the spectrum, it’s dangerous. I think it is just as dangerous to make so much of the session about you, just as much as it is to never say anything about you. Because you want your clients to see you as human. Like even just something as simple as mentioning “this is what I’ve done with my therapist” or whatever and they go, “oh, you have therapy?”, “Yeah, of course. Of course, we have therapy. Gosh, are you kidding?” You know, so I think even just little things like, there’s an ease that it gives the clients to not only be able to see new alternatives, new thoughts, but to know that we’re all in the same boat. We’re all just figuring life out together. And it’s that commonality of human experience, I think, that really resonates in the room to just normalise what we’re doing.
[26:56] “Oh, okay. I can just relax about this.” So, I love self-disclosure and working from a lived experience part of you. And yeah, I think it’s a real missed opportunity for those who sort of tread the line of never using it at all. I shared a meme on my Instagram story today about sort of therapists not having a blank slate and it’s all of these images of different facial expressions and no client of mine ever gets a blank slate here. If you’re outraged, I’m outraged. And I’m going to show you that I’m outraged, not just say that. You know, we want to sort of have that commonality there.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[27:42] Yeah, I ask myself is that what benefit is it for the client holding myself back? Therapy works, counseling works because of the relationship. We know that.
SAM SELLERS:
Absolutely.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[27:53] It doesn’t matter the training. It doesn’t matter the background. It doesn’t matter the modality. It doesn’t matter the mode of delivery. It’s about the relationship. It’s about the client liking and trusting us with their story to process and work through their stuff. My clients like me better when I’m a real human with my own struggles. And I own my stuff. You know, if I’m running late to a session because my kids at home sick or something, they’re not going to—
SAM SELLERS:
It normalises it.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[28:24] It normalises it. Totally. And so, they can feel safe in their own experience as well, even if it’s not the same as ours. So, back to that modeling, right? I believe in the power of the relationship, and I don’t put so much stock in the power of my intellect or whether or not I’m doing it right, or whether or not I’ve read enough books.
SAM SELLERS:
[28:51] And I think that keeps you as a therapist in the position of human who is helping and supporting and guiding, and not in the position of expert. And that is not a position I like to sit in. You know, I like to sit in the space of “I’m a human with lived experiences in these areas”, which is why I like to work with clients who present in these areas. You are a man. You are a dad. That is why you get to share that human experience in the room. So, I think it takes you out of the space of I don’t want to be seen as an expert, I don’t want to be seen as someone who knows it all and has it all together because by geez, I do not.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[29:36] I think the client likes to think to put us in that position. I get that, “Oh, you’re the expert, Matt. You tell me what to do.” And I go, oh.
SAM SELLERS:
Yeah. I had one client go, “what do you think? This is your job or something” and I was like, “well, a little bit, just a little bit.”
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[29:54] I always say, “if I tell you what to do and it doesn’t work, what’s that going to do for us? How are you going to come back the next time? Because I can tell you what’s coming up for me. And if that’s what your system needs, we can talk about that and we can hash that out. But I’m more curious about what impact that’s going to go away and have if I get really directive.” Because so many of the men that I work with, they’ve never had counselling before, they’ve never had this kind of support, they don’t have any skill development, they’re looking for tools, they’re looking for answers. They’re looking for intellectual, rational problem-solving skills. And we know that that’s just not effective when it comes to emotional relational problems.
SAM SELLERS:
Yeah, absolutely. Or trauma.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[30:45] Or trauma, right? We can’t logic our way out of it. We can’t analyse our way out of it, we can’t overthink our way out of.
SAM SELLERS:
[30:53] And sometimes reasoning your way out of it is really invalidating. It’s an awful experience just trying to reason. And that’s just bypassing human emotion.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[31:04] And as men, that’s what we’ve been taught to do. Bypass human emotion. So, most of the men that I work with, they’ve never fully experienced their own emotional capacity. One of my favourite questions that I ask almost all my guys early on is “when was the last time you really remember feeling something strongly?”
SAM SELLERS:
Great question.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[31:27] Do you know the number of times I have stumped men into not responding. They can’t think of it.
SAM SELLERS:
I tell you what, I think that would stump most people. I think that’s a question that would stump a lot of people.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
It absolutely would.
SAM SELLERS:
[31:39] Yeah, because it really means that you have to self-reflect and have enough self-awareness to even be able to regulate and notice when those emotions are happening. I think that would stump stacks of people.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[31:52] One of my favourite answers from the guys I work with, “Oh yeah, on Friday. Yeah, on Friday.” It’s like, “What did you feel on Friday?”, “Oh yeah, my sister got engaged and I was really happy for her.” I was like, “Great. That’s amazing. What did that feel like?”, “What do you mean what did it feel like?”
SAM SELLERS:
I felt happy about it.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[32:08] “I felt happy.” And I’m like, “Yeah, no, I believe you. I believe that you were genuinely happy in that moment. Totally get it. What did it feel like? What does happy feel like to you?” He’s like, “I just think that I’m happy.” I’m like, “Right. So, you didn’t feel happy. You thought about it. You thought happy. You thought that you were really happy.” And he’s like, “Yeah, that’s a really good point.” I’m like, “Great. Wonderful. When was the last time you remember feeling something?” And so many guys go, “It hasn’t been since I was a kid” or it might be that angry outburst that they had no control over or something. And then we go, “Right. What was that like for you? What did it take for you to get from this point to this last feeling that you had this last outburst?” And they can name eight, 10, 15 transgressions before their body will actually allow them to explode because they’re so emotionally dissociated from their bodies, and so tight, and so tense and so logical that they genuinely cannot get to a place where they allow themselves to feel their own emotions, right?
[33:21] And so, I think a lot of the work that I do is silently and slowly, very gently caressing them into a place where if I hear it in their voice I go, “Oh, what was that?” Because I bet you there’s something in there, right? And they’ll be like, “Oh yeah, no, I don’t know.” Like, “is that confused? Are you confused? Are you a little bit uncertain?” “Yeah.” “Where do you feel uncertain? Where do you feel confused?”, “Oh, I feel it’s like my stomach’s dropped.” I’m like, “Perfect. There you go. You’ve done it. You’ve done it. You’re successful. Now you’ve felt a feeling.” They’re like “what?” I’m like, “that’s it. That’s all it is.”
SAM SELLERS:
[34:09] Just being able to connect that body sensation, that physical sensation with a human emotion is one of the most difficult things for a lot of people to do. And I think if there’s people out there listening, going, “well, why does it have to be slow? Why does it have to be caressed out of people?” Well, because we don’t want to overwhelm anybody. If we were to do that really quickly and a really fast process, that’s going to be so overwhelming that people will just check right on out. “I’m checking out of this hotel.”
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[34:48] Exactly. If you’re already dissociating, if you’re already struggling for potentially decades of your life and you’ve never felt or you’ve really struggled to connect to your feelings somatically and in your body, what’s going to happen when we open those floodgates? In my language, what are the protective parts doing and how are they going to feel about it if we bypass that protection? Because they’re doing it for a reason. The dissociation is happening for a very good reason. So, if we go too fast, if we step into that, I’ve done this twice now recently, where clients have come back to me, actually in the session after I get them into the body, with permission, I always ask permission. They’ve come back and they’ve said, “No, can’t do it. Flooded.” And they shut down and you literally see their bodies and heads shut down. And I go, “Right, that was on me. I went too quickly. Please do not think for a second that you’re doing anything wrong. You are not. Protective system is doing exactly what it’s meant to do. I went too fast and that’s not my fault. We’re just testing and adjusting, all right? We’re finding the groove. We’ll figure it out together, but let’s just do whatever your parts need to do to protect you from this feeling, you do that. And that’s totally appropriate.”
[36:16] I had one guy come back. It was four weeks between sessions. He’s like, “I have been in crisis for four weeks straight.” And he’s like, “I haven’t been able to work.” And we did a deep piece of work with this guy because his parts, and it was full permission, his parts were saying, “Yeah, this is what we want to do.” They were trying to force him to do what they thought was the right thing. Logically he’s like, “this is how we heal ourselves. So, we’re just going to do it. We’re just going to do what Matt says.” And I was taking that as permission rather than coercion, internal coercion. And because I didn’t see it and his protective system just tried to tough it out until the next session, got to the next session and oh my God, that was a doozy because I had to really work with the protectors to repair any trust that I might’ve lost in that space for not being capable enough. And it was amazing. Now he works wonderfully in his own system. Because we’re modeling that repair, we’re modeling that trust. I’m sitting there going, “I didn’t notice that that’s on me.” And he’s like, “what? You’re taking responsibility? No one’s ever done that.”
SAM SELLERS:
What does that look like?
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[37:43] Right. And I’m just like, “this is what guys don’t have”, you know? And so, a lot of guys will go back and their therapist or their psychologist will say, “Oh right, you mustn’t have done it” or “the tools aren’t working” or “there’s something wrong with you, we need to shift gears”, you know? “There’s something wrong with your system where that wasn’t effective enough.” And I was like, “No, no, no. Your system was bloody perfect. That was super effective.”
SAM SELLERS:
[38:08] It’s doing what it’s trained and designed to do.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[38:11] That part of you that let us go to that place too quickly, really wanted you to heal. That’s a good thing, right? I just didn’t catch that it was a part. I just didn’t catch that we were bypassing something, and that’s on me. But that’s okay. That’s okay. I mean, I wish that you’d called me the next day or something so I could have got you in later, not four weeks later. But that’s okay. You know, just a little reminder every Friday I have emergency sessions just for things like this. Put a few extra things in place now since that time. But really, and a lot of men do not want to go slow. They do not want to be gentle. There’s a lot of like, it feels like coercion. And there’s a lot of like, give them what they want, but also sprinkle a little bit of what we think they need. And that feels a little expert-y. That feels a little like, “I know more than you about your own life.” But at the same time the feedback is always the same, “I’ve been to this psychologist, I’ve got these tools and done this and that”, and I go, “Great, how has that been working for you in the last few years?” and they’re like, “it hasn’t.” So, obviously—
SAM SELLERS:
It’s clearly not working, let’s put the toolbox aside.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[39:28] Let’s put them over there. And that’s one of the things I was talking to a client over today. I just said, “Look, I get it. I get it that you feel even worse because those tools aren’t working. And I get that you feel like even more shameful and bad and like you’re getting it wrong because you’re not able to implement it, or the part is too strong or the anger is just too much, or the whatever it is. I don’t work that way. I never have. But at the same time, if you need tools, if those intellectual, logical, analytical parts want something to grapple and grip onto, I’ve got them. Here they are.”
SAM SELLERS:
[40:07] And tools can be great. Tools can be wonderful. You know, they’re helpful. But they’re only helpful if it’s the right tool and you know how to use it. You know, there’s no point trying to hammer something with a screwdriver. Yes, you might get the same job done, but it’s not going to be super effective for you. So, you want the right tool for the right purpose with the right person. And that combination then means that it works. But those stock standard, just “you’ve got anxiety. Here, do this.” That’s never going to work.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[40:46] Right. And I think you’ve touched on something really important there, which is a lot of the pieces have to fall into place before things can feel really effective. And some of those pieces are within our control and some of those pieces aren’t within our control. For some people, it takes 10 years to find the right person. For some people, they find it the first time around. It can be really challenging for guys who have never done this before, who don’t know or understand the nuance. And that’s why I think as clinicians, it’s really important for us to be able to hold sort of space and compassion and curiosity for our guys, even if it’s not working. Or even if they want to go too fast or even if they’re asking for things that we don’t give. To really understand that this is a pretty tricky environment to navigate as it is, right? Let alone with all of our own wounds and a lot of our own insecurities. And on top of a protective parts that don’t want us to be vulnerable with people we don’t know.
[41:45] So, I just hold a lot of patience, a lot of perspective. I do a lot of work on just trying to zoom out in my own mind around what does this person really need. I’ve had clients say, “That’s really offensive, Matt” when I’ve like called out stalking behavior or something really intense where I’m like, “Well, that’s actually like, for you that’s you breaching that boundary of that person. That’s you finding a loophole and doing the opposite of what that person’s asked you to do.” And they’d be like, “That’s so offensive. That’s not what I was showing. It’s a total misinterpretation.” My parts are going to come up around that. But if I can zoom out and just gain that perspective to be like, “Oh, of course, that person’s going to get defensive around me naming that. And it’s important for me to name that as I see it.” So, say, “Right, you really feel offended. You really struggle with that idea that maybe that behavior that you thought was totally normal, because it is technically legal, might actually be a breach of somebody’s trust or a breach or something, even though technically you’re allowed to do it.”
[42:58] And so, for them, that carries a lot of shame. That carries a lot of guilt. If I can just zoom out, if I can just stay really curious and be with them and not take that personally, then I’m doing my job. I’m connecting with them. I’m building that relationship. And then I’m running to supervision afterwards.
SAM SELLERS:
[43:15] And I mean, I feel like we’ve jumped down a rabbit hole that we could talk about for hours, to be honest. But let’s finish with, I’ve asked everybody who I’m doing these chats with to think of a myth that you would love to smash. What is that myth? What are we smashing?
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[43:33] I like to remind myself every day that I come into work that men are not the simple creatures we think they are, that we’re taught that they are, that they will tell us that they are. They’re not the simple creatures that they want to be. And one of the ways, one of the things that I like to just remind myself every day is that telling them that they’re more complex and that they have feelings and just like steamrolling them into understanding that it’s okay to have feelings and emotions and complexity and nuance, and not need to logic and problem solve their way out of everything is not usually effective. I haven’t met many people, many guys where that’s been the most effective strategy. It’s back to your original point. It’s always the same, showing them that there’s more to themselves than they might realize and that that’s okay and safe. And understanding that nuance is going to give them the capacity to relate better to their partners, to their parents, to their kids and become the kind of people that they want to be.
[44:40] And actually sort of move towards effective behavior change. Which is what they’re coming to us for. So, that’s the big one for me. Men are not the simple creatures that everyone wants them to be, that they think they are, and that they kind of are told that they should be.
SAM SELLERS:
[44:58] We are all human. And humans are complex. And why there is that sort of assumption that men are somehow immune to that is ridiculous. It’s just ridiculous. It’s bizarre. I don’t know how we ever came to that. But however, it happened is insane to me. You know, men are not immune to the complexities of life or relationships or their own internal world map. So, I love that.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
As hard as they may try. As hard as they may try.
SAM SELLERS:
[45:36] Absolutely. We as humans do not. We don’t deserve to be boxed in. So, let’s throw the boxes in the recycling bin.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[45:45] Exactly. And at the same time, let’s do it safely. Right?
SAM SELLERS:
Yeah. Don’t shove it all in at once. It won’t fit. Have you seen the size of the recycling bin? They’re tiny. You are never going to shove it all in. And you will get boxes that are TV size boxes, and you’ll get one that is a tissue box size. And so, let’s maybe start with the tissue box size and not go straight to one that a couch would fit in. So, that’s going to be much easier. Let’s pull that one apart slowly, bit by bit.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[46:20] So, the analogy that I use with almost every single one of my clients, and funnily enough, fits perfectly with the box analogy you’re using, is let’s go into the basement where you’ve stored all your boxes and you’ve stored all your shit. Sometimes I’ll say, let’s go out into the garage at the back. If they’re a really particularly manly man with [inaudible] and stuff, I’ll go, “let’s go to shed, mate. In your mind, let’s go to the shed where you store all your shit. And all we’re doing today is turning the light on. That’s it. We’re not touching the box. We’re not touching the box. We’re not touching any of your shit. I just want you to know that it’s there. We can turn the light on. We can look around. We can notice. How do we feel? Overwhelmed? Interested? Curious? What’s going on for you as you notice how much is in your basement? How much is in your shed? How much is in your garage? How much you stored away?” Maybe there are some scary stuff that can be down there, there’s some really big stuff, daunting stuff that can be down there and that’s all okay, we’re not touching it, we’re just turning the light on. And when you feel ready, turn the light off and come back out.
SAM SELLERS:
Amazing.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[47:28] And it just opens them up to this idea that maybe there’s some stuff that they’ve been pushing down and burying and ignoring and putting away and that that’s okay. Normal. But that we can access it if and when we feel ready to do that. Works quite well. They seem to like it.
SAM SELLERS:
[47:45] Absolutely. That’s great. Well, the boxes have got to go somewhere, so I love the basement garage method. So, that’s great.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
Yeah.
SAM SELLERS:
[47:53] Well, it has been wonderful chatting to you, Matt. It has been great. You know, I think that we probably could have chatted for a whole hour more, to be honest. I think there is a lot of nuance and complexity with working in this space. And I love that you are because it is needed. You know, there is needs to be a container, a space where people and where men can go. And I don’t tend to use the term safe space. I tend to go with I want my therapy space to feel like it’s filter free, because we filter language all the time. We go, “I won’t bring that up because it will cause an argument” or “I won’t say that because it will just be easier that way. I’ll just push it, push it down. It’s just easier.” And so, I want the space to be filter free. And I think there needs to be that space for men to feel like they don’t have to filter something. They don’t need to reframe something for your benefit. They get to just be who they are and explore their complexities. Explore that in a way. So, I love that there is that space and that it is an accessible space for people nationwide.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[49:19] Yeah. No, thanks for that, Sam. And I agree. I think like I said, I’m starting to really build and cultivate a bit of a community of like-minded people who love working with men and want to kind of, whether that’s in their practice, like solely their focus in the practice or just as a part of their practice. You know, I’ve got a professional’s Facebook group of people who work just with men and fathers, and we just chat and we put our stuff in, and we put like resources in there. If anyone’s doing talks and anything like that, they chuck it in, and we’re just kind of helping to support each other around the nuance of working with guys in the space. And it’s really wonderful.
SAM SELLERS:
[49:59] Absolutely. Those collectives are so needed. I have one as well of a collective of therapists that I set up with a colleague around us our specialty, which is religious trauma. And it is needed to be able to have collective spaces where there is mutual learning. There is no experts here. We are all learning from one another. And we are learning because we want to be able to present one, our best selves and two, the best spaces for the people who fall into our rooms, whether that be physical or virtual. So, amazing.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[50:34] And also, happy to send you the link if anyone listening, if you’re a practitioner or what are you, you can just jump in and have that chat. I’ve got a few schoolteachers from Africa who I don’t know if they fit the criteria, but for the most part, counsellors, it’s called counsellors.
SAM SELLERS:
Oh, don’t we love social media?
MATT MUSGRAVE:
[51:00] You know, I think they genuinely like, I think they genuinely wanted to join and there was nothing sort of dodgy about it at all. I was kind of like, “Oh, I don’t know if this is going to be right fit for you.” But anyway, I’ll send you the link for that as well if people are interested.
SAM SELLERS:
[51:14] Perfect. I will be popping all your details in the description anyway. So, I hope people will be able to follow social medias, head to your website, more details, all of that sort of thing.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
But I am very much like yourself in the process of getting like a counselling podcast called like Australian Aussie Men’s Counselling Podcast for men, where I interview practitioners and guys around specific niches and things like that, as a resource, because it’s just like I’m getting to the point where I can’t see everyone, but I’d love to still get a lot of that information out there. So, hopefully that’ll be up and running by the end of the year as well. I’ll get you on.
SAM SELLERS:
[51:54] Amazing. Thanks so much, Matt. It’s been great.
MATT MUSGRAVE:
Awesome. Thanks, Sam. This is awesome. Well done.
SAM SELLERS:
We hope you enjoyed joining us Inside the Therapy Room. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next time.