Our latest episode is now live on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and all major podcast platforms. And guess what? The transcript is available below for your reading pleasure. Happy listening!
You can find out more about Naomi Hutchings on her website – https://naomihutchings.com.au/
Transcript:
SAM SELLERS:
[00:11] Hello and welcome to Inside the Therapy Room. I’m your host, Sam Sellers. I’m a registered therapist, a wife and a fur mama, and I am passionate about breaking down the barriers and stigma attached to therapy.
I want to begin by honouring the traditional custodians of the land we live and work on. Today, Naomi is on Yugurra Land and Sam is on Gundungurra Land. We pay our respects to the elders’ past, present and emerging, for they hold the memories, the traditions and cultures of our First Nations people. We must always remember that the land below our feet is, was and always will be Aboriginal land.
[00:54] Today we’re chatting to Naomi Hutchings, commonly known on social media as the Australian Sexologist. Naomi has been working in the wonderfully interesting field of human sexuality and relationships for over 17 years. She completed a Master of Health Science in Sexual Health, a Bachelor of Arts degree majoring in Gender Studies and Politics, and is completing a postgraduate in Counselling. She works completely online with people all over Australia and around the world. She has years of experience working with people from diverse backgrounds and is committed to understanding and acknowledging the way race, culture, ability, gender and sexuality intersect in people’s lives. Naomi is working full time in the Sexual and Relationships Counselling space where she works one-on-one with individuals, couples, throuples, families and other relationship structures.
[01:59] Her youngest client was just 6 and her oldest clients were a couple aged 89 and 90. Tune in to hear how Naomi found herself working within the world of sexology. We discuss what is and isn’t involved in sex therapy. We explore the impact of social media and the broader society on the conversation around sex and what it is like inside her virtual therapy room. And as always, Naomi smashes a myth from the world of sexology. We hope you enjoy joining us inside the therapy room.
[02:36 Welcome, Naomi. Thanks for joining me.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
Thanks, Sam. Thanks for having me.
SAM SELLERS:
Yes, it’s wonderful.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
And hopefully the puppies will stay quiet.
SAM SELLERS:
Yes, I know. I’ve also got a puppy on my lap, which this is the first podcast she’s joined me in, so I’m hoping that she will be nice and quiet.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[02:50] Fingers crossed. We have four dogs amongst us and hope they all stay quiet.
SAM SELLERS:
[02:54] Who knows what will happen? Anything can happen with four dogs. Goodness. Thank you for joining me. I’m so excited for this episode. We had a little bit of a social media chat beforehand, but I have been a longtime follower of you on Instagram. I think most people will know you as the Australian sexologist. And so, today we are chatting about all things that fit that category of sex therapy, sexology, all those fun topics. What drew you to this line of work?
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[03:26] Well, I think probably the thing that always comes to mind when people ask me that question is I had an unplanned pregnancy when I was a Catholic schoolgirl. I was 16 and a half. And I had some interesting things happen throughout that. Things happen that I could probably talk about another time, where some interesting things happen of people’s reactions to a teenager becoming pregnant. Anyway, so I had that baby. But back then, if you left school, you had to wait until you could try to get into Uni through something called the mature age entry. And mature age was 21. So, I waited.
SAM SELLERS:
[04:08] Not great for the ageism conversation at all.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[04:11] Yeah, that was interesting. Now I think there’s much better ways people can go in for a lot of reasons. Anyway, I was 21, went to Uni and at that point I started an arts degree, it was called gender studies then, women’s studies for a while and then swapped. So, it was called women’s studies, but it was about gender as well. And then the politics. And I started doing a lot of like essays and things that were about teenage parents and just different things like that. And that’s what got me thinking about the lack of, or I perceived it to be a lack of comprehensive and inclusive sex ed in the curriculum, what’s going on, that kind of stuff. So, I think that sort of started it. And then I was doing volunteer work at different places and ended up doing a lot of sex ed stuff, and I ended up being like a sex educator at a sexual health service.
[05:00] So, I kind of got very passionate about it very quickly and then ended up, I did some training and stuff with the sexual health service in South Australia. I ended up working there, running that course in the end. And I did a master’s through university of New South Wales a long while ago now. I think that master’s in sexual health is a little bit more tied up in the medical space now there, but yeah. So, I think I just kind of realized that we were getting a lot of messages that weren’t helpful, not true. And that’s why I sort of went in that space.
SAM SELLERS:
[05:30] Yeah. I love that. And I would love to say that I feel like that messaging that we get has gotten better and it probably has to some degree, but it is still really warped. There is still some really warped conversations. And like I said to you before we started recording, that I work with religious trauma and purity and there is such a big part of that, that narrow conservative view of sex and sexuality and modesty and purity, abstinence and all of that is just toxic conversation. And people automatically think that the opposite of that is just like swinger’s parties and just sexual chaos when we know that it’s just not that. It’s about sexual authenticity and integrity and understanding. I wish that conversation was better than it is.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[06:35] For sure. I mean, I’ll be 49 I think next week. And so, I got the messaging and I know, again, this is what I mean, no matter who I talk to, everyone gets different stuff. Even if you were growing up in Australia, like I speak to people all over the world, but so it’s all very different, but it’s not even the same in Australia. Each city doesn’t have its own sort of, it’d be great if you had the one thing. But anyway, the messaging is different. So, people will sometimes say, “Oh, you had some okay stuff”. And yeah, but mine was very much don’t have sex until you’re married and certainly didn’t address anyone who might be clear in this space, because that wasn’t a thing either, right? And I still see pockets where I feel like it’s all still there. And it feels like just when I was back at high school, which is sad. Then other times I get a bit happier about the conversation that’s happening.
SAM SELLERS:
[07:25] There’s little glimmers of hope that maybe something is changing. That maybe the conversation is going in a different direction. So, for people who might not have any idea, what is sexology? What is sex therapy? What does that involve?
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[07:38] So really like sexology, and I get to say that I’m a sexologist, it’s just that you study human sexuality at university. I suppose like people were studying, I did a bit of that anthropology, so then you become an anthropologist or something. Or I’d heard that people get called musicologists. I had no idea.
SAM SELLERS:
I did not know that.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[07:55] No, they study music and that’s what they call it. So, really you just get this ologist on the end. But yeah, I studied human sexuality at a university level. So, that’s one part, but I’ve done many random ongoing trainings all the time, just in any little part.
SAM SELLERS:
[08:10] So, what might someone go to therapy for; what might they see a sexologist for?
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[08:17] It’s so broad, but I will have things that I see regularly. And that will be usually like maybe a couple. I do see people who are in throuples. I think the biggest I’ve had was a quad, but mostly couples or around managing their differences in maybe a few things. And maybe how often they each want sex or how they get aroused, because some people are more spontaneous, and some people are more responsive. So, that’s a very, very common thing that I see lots, lots and lots of that. And then you know, people who are struggling with erection issues or not being able to orgasm or yeah. So, they’re kind of common things. And then I feel like the one about with the couples managing the differences is always big, but now I also see a lot of people who wanting to open their relationship who previously haven’t. But then also sexuality. So, just their attraction. So, wanting to work through who they’re attracted to and then also gender. So, I do see a lot of people who are working through that as well. And, sexual pain comes up a lot. So, yeah, particularly those with vaginas. So, I see a lot of vaginismus or just sexual pain and trying to manage that.
SAM SELLERS:
[09:30] I often work with a lot of couples also, and it is one of the common things that comes up, even for couples just seeking, I guess, traditional therapy. Is that mismatched desire level or mismatched expectations even around what somebody needs or wants in that department.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[09:52] And that’s why I say I try to, I sometimes hate using the word normal because I feel like we always think that there is a certain thing that to make it normal, we’re putting it against something else or comparing it. But I feel like I want to normalize the fact that I actually don’t think that, I know it becomes an issue, why do we even think that two human beings, if it’s two, would want, like they’re horny at the same time? It’s such a strange thing. Whereas we totally understand one of you might be hungry and the other one isn’t, one’s a sleepy person and they prefer to lay in in the mornings or whatever. But this, yeah, again, because of all the unrealistic sex expectations, this is what we see all the time. Imagine if you were taught that? That it’s okay. This is a very common thing.
SAM SELLERS:
[10:38] Absolutely. And the number of couples that I see that just don’t have any conversations about it. I go, “how often do you actually talk about sex? Not just have sex but talk about it”. And it’s so much rarer than you would want it to be. And you sort of go, “well, how are you supposed to know what the other person wants, needs, desires, what their expectations are if you don’t talk about it?”
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[11:05] Absolutely. And again, there’s obviously many reasons why, but also, I think people just have this idea. It’s natural. Like it’s just going to flow, and you don’t need a conversation because that just should just happen. Also, not helpful and not true.
SAM SELLERS:
[11:19] Absolutely. And I see that happen a lot for those who get married to have sex, particularly in the church and things like that. And they have this perception because there is no sex education before that, you don’t talk about it, that it is just going to be some magical wedding night. And in reality, they get there, and they have no idea what to do with each other’s body because they have no idea what they’re looking at or what to do with it.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[11:49] And wedding days can be very exhausting. And I think if you haven’t, and again, I suppose what you’re really talking to there is that probably their idea or definition of sex is P in the V, penis in the vagina. So, there is so much like terror for some people or just this they’re panicking, or they’ve got all these ideas that it ends up absolutely being an awful time.
SAM SELLERS:
[12:12] Yes, absolutely. Move the goal posts. I tell my couples all the time, we need to move the goal posts. Sex incorporates so much more than just penetration and intercourse.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[12:23] It’s a helpful way to redefine your idea of what sex is, and then it can be helpful for everybody.
SAM SELLERS:
[12:31] Yeah, absolutely. I’m thinking about, and I did mention this to you before, people who are watching Netflix series like sex, love and goop. And you know, all those sorts of things, I guess, ways to get in touch with sexuality and intimacy with your partner and things like that. But there is a difference in different types of sexology and things like that. And so, I guess what is sexology not?
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[13:01] Yeah, well, for me, I suppose, I am a member of the society of sexologists and that’s just a space you can join, but I know that they have an overarching thing around sort of no touch. So, I think sometimes people— I do remember once when I was doing face-to-face in Adelaide, this lovely, well, at first, I did, I assumed. I just assumed they were a couple because I walked in, and I hadn’t heard anything. I hadn’t seen the pre stuff because now most people fill a form out and tell me a little bit, but they just came in. And so, I assumed they were coming in together as a couple. They’re actually cousins because she had come in to see me and she was so scared that I was going to get her to take her clothes off. We keep clothes on in here. I can talk about all this stuff. So, yes, I think some people do think that that’s what I’m going to do, that I’m going to massage them. And I mean, I know that’s a thing because I’ve had some clients tell me they went off for what they call yoni massages. And I’m like “No, I don’t do that”.
[13:55] I certainly talk in sometimes detail about what you’re doing, because we’re discussing it. But no, there’s no touching. And you know, now because I’m always online, I’m sure. Like as long as you’ve got clothes on, I don’t care if you’re in your pyjama’s, grab a cup of tea and talk to me. Because sometimes people are like, “Oh, I’m having a bad day”. And I’m like, “I don’t care. Get on. It’s okay. Grab a cup of tea, sit in bed and we’ll talk”. But no, your clothes are on. And mine are too.
SAM SELLERS:
[14:20] Yes. And I think it probably would be a very real and valid fear for some people if they don’t understand what they’re going to.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
That I’m going to make them sit there and do some sort of sexual couple thing in front of me. No, that’s not what happens either. There are workshops for that, but that’s not me.
SAM SELLERS:
[14:42] Absolutely. And I think it is sort of important for people to make that distinguish between what is somatic sexology with the body and does involve touch, and sexology where it is not.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
No, we don’t do that.
SAM SELLERS:
Hopefully that will put some people’s minds at ease.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
I hope so. Yes. I mean, if that’s what you’re looking for, go looking for that and they’ll specify that on their websites, but yeah, if you’re worried, just know that that’s usually not what’s going on. And I’m not a sex worker. So, sometimes people think that as well. So, I try to say that separate as well. So, I’m not going to be having sex with you. I’ll talk about sex, but we’re not going to be having sex.
SAM SELLERS:
[15:24] What is it like for the person coming in, having to talk about something that is probably never been talked about with somebody else?
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[15:35] It’s funny when I first went fully online, I was a bit worried about how when you would notice looking at people and worried that you can sort of pick up when people are nervous, but I find it’s brilliant because we’re so close, I can see. So, yes, I can tell some people are sweating. You can tell they’re nervous, but I do this whole thing at the beginning, talk about, I say some things about myself. I acknowledge, I say, “listen, I’ve been in this field for 20 years. So, I sometimes probably appear very blasé because this is all I do, but I acknowledge all of that and acknowledge that I understand you may be very nervous”. And then some people go, “No, I’m fine” or others say “Yes”.
[16:14] So, I just say, “look, I’m going to do my very best to help you feel comfortable, but just know I do this all the time and I really am comfy. So, I hope I can do that”. But yeah, people are nervous. They’ll sometimes do things like see other people. So, they’re going to a psychologist, psychiatrist, whatever, but then come to me just for the sex part. It’s like they cannot talk to their other therapist about it, or maybe their therapist hasn’t brought it up, which is interesting because that’s one of the things I used to do, train professionals. And I would say, “bring it up, ask the question” and they’re like “no, no, no.” And I’m like, “yeah, ask it”. And then they can shut you down and say, “I don’t want to talk about it” or they’ll go, “yes.” So, anyway, it’s still not happening, or people will go, “Oh, go see Naomi”. Because they’re worried that they can’t talk about it. I suppose they think you must be like this expert, which is you can still have a discussion without having formal training.
SAM SELLERS:
[17:04] Yeah, absolutely. And I think anybody who is working with couples needs to have that comfortability to be able to have that conversation. You know, I will always tell any couple that I’m working with to share to the point that they are comfortable, that I am totally okay with what they want to tell me. But it is such an important part of a relationship, and it can’t be avoided. It needs to be spoken about. And so, it doesn’t mean that you must then continue working on that with them. That’s why there are people you are referred to if it is something that is much more health-based or pain-based or something that you don’t have training in. But yeah, the conversation needs to be had. Otherwise, you’re missing a part of the puzzle.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[17:58] Absolutely. And I suppose people, when they see me, they’ve obviously searched for me and know that that’s kind of my specialty area, I suppose. But yeah, we often do end up talking about other things too, because they think it’s about the sex and sometimes it’s not about the sex. It’s something else we need to work on. But we work through that. Sometimes it really is specific to sex, but other times there’s this whole relationship thing that unfolds or something or just their own stuff.
SAM SELLERS:
[18:23] Actually, that’s a great point, which is there’s probably these other things that you’re talking about. There would be trauma. There would be other things. It’s not just body parts and sex.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[18:36] No, lots of body stuff. We’re unpacking fat phobia, also race, gender, like all these lines. I suppose that’s kind of that sort of feminist perspective. Often people think that we have the idea that feminist stuff is about sitting there talking about hating men. No, what we’re doing is just talking about the way that societal stuff in different layers impact. So, yes, we talk about culture, gender, patriarchy, like all the things that can impact their sexual relationship. And sometimes people, I think you just get so caught up in what you’re feeling you don’t realize, “Oh yeah, there was that. I was just shaming myself. That was slut shaming, where did that come from?” and we unpack that. So, yeah, we do lots of that, how the media impacts them, how they grew up, what messages they got. If they’re religious, what was said about sex for them. So, yeah, layers and layers of that.
SAM SELLERS:
[19:27] And I would imagine that there would have been a lot of conversations when there are high profile situations in the media, like sexual assault trials and things like that, that are bringing up a lot of stuff for people internally that might remind them of a situation that they went through or even just, I mean, oh goodness. I just think like my wife tells me all the time, “just don’t look at the comments, like just don’t,” but I still always look at the comments. I still must look at the comments. And then afterwards I go, “why did I look at the comments?” Because you just see “well, what was she wearing?” And there’s all these comments that just make you angry or just furious at the way that society still views sex and sexuality and how somebody dresses and sex work, and things like that. So, I would imagine that there would even be conversations around how some of these things are spoken about in the media.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[20:34] Absolutely. And it’s interesting, you said about like even sex work, I do get, I find a lot of sex workers come to me. Maybe they’ve just seen something or heard me on the radio or something. And they obviously feel they’ve realised they’ve got a non-judgmental space with me. So, sometimes they come just because they’ve got their own stuff, but not necessarily at all about being a sex worker. It’s just other stuff that they feel comfortable with me because they can say and just be open. But we do. And unfortunately, I suppose because of my line of work, but statistic wise, I do see a lot of survivors of sexual assault, and even wonderfully intelligent people who know that we’re getting better at pushing back and not self-blaming and all that. They’ll still, once we unpack a bit, you find that a lot they’ll still say something to me and I’m always like interjecting and saying, “wait, what did you just say?” And then they sometimes don’t even realize they’ve said it. And I go, “did you hear what you just said?” And you can tell that they said they’re okay, but they blame themselves for whatever reason, some of the stuff you just said.
SAM SELLERS:
[21:35] Yeah, absolutely. We’ve had a conversation before about social media in general, but do you find that you see social media trends come up in your room with people?
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[21:51] I mean, there’s certainly, I’m sure you see this. There is a lot of self-diagnosis stuff going on and words thrown around that I haven’t heard as much as I do now. Like every second person saying someone’s a narcissist. Now I’m not saying that, and again, I just want to be clear, I’m not a psychologist, but I know that there aren’t as many narcissists as there some people who are shitty and they’re just not good people, or their behaviour is crappy. That gets thrown around. So, just buzzwords, even I suppose I’m thinking of like even in the ADHD space, which has been great for people to remove stigma and stuff. But even some of the words, the buzzwords that are coming around ADHD aren’t even actually again, I suppose this is interesting, like in the DSM and I don’t know, I’ve got feelings about the DSM anyway, about that, right? But the fact that it’s not even there, but they’re seen as something.
[22:45] So, or like co-dependency, that word always gets thrown around and I’m like, “hang on a minute, can we just unpack that? What does that even mean really?” You know? So, I’m often just saying, “why? where did we get that from?” And yeah, so yes, if there’s stuff that’s in there, they’ll bring it in, like those big words, like buzzwords I suppose is what I’m saying, is that you hear, and then they’ll start talking about it, which I never used to hear as much.
SAM SELLERS:
[23:10] What is it like for a sexologist on social media? Because I’m not concerned that my content is going to get banned or hidden. I mean, sometimes with the religious trauma posts I put up, I’m thinking, “goodness, I can get some conservative Christians to write in on that”. But I don’t tend to have Instagram’s algorithm ban posts and things like that because of the word sex or things like that. What is it like?
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[23:43] Yeah, I’ve had that happen. And I know we went through a phase. Look, my page has gotten very like still, I suppose is the right word. I’ve been on that since 2013, and I haven’t ventured into TikTok or anything just because I just can’t, I feel like I’m just overwhelmed and I’m one of the people who grew up without it, so I know what it’s like without it. But yeah, so I haven’t been as active as usual. But I, there was a time where there were, people even now are doing it, some of the pages that have continued to grow and the younger sexologists around the world, they’re not even writing the word sex now, they use a hashtag because there was stuff. But I did, I’d get really angry because like nipples and things at one point, or birth.
[24:23] At one point, we all signed, there was a petition, and we thankfully got that. We won that. But yeah, it was a while back, I couldn’t even put, I was putting birthing sort of stuff up and they were banning that, and again, that stopped. But yeah, definitely, I can tell people will say things to me, “I haven’t seen any of your posts for a while”. So, yes, I mean, a lot of the stuff I ended up doing, because I was just using how I, just because of myself, how I like to hear stuff, I would get comedic sort of, so some comedy, some funny tweet, and then I would then take that and use it with comedy to make a post about a particular thing. So, yeah, so that probably stopped so many images that I was using.
[25:04] But yeah, I definitely think that there have been people banned. And you know, some people that I used to speak to a lot in other countries, sex workers and stuff like they have things shut down. And yeah, so definitely, it’s difficult.
SAM SELLERS:
[25:18] Absolutely. It’s like the censorship is just extreme. Things that you wouldn’t think are being censored. Like people with larger bodies and people who—
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[25:35] And the nipple thing.
SAM SELLERS:
Yes, it’s so bizarre.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[25:37] How do you guess Instagram? How do you know what gender someone’s nipple is? it’s weird. All that stuff. I think the nipple thing went around a while back when that happened.
SAM SELLERS:
[25:45] I don’t remember who it might have been. I think it might have been Ellie. I think she runs Comfortable in My Skin. And I think she did a post where she posted photos of people’s nipples without their bodies.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
Yes, and there’s a guess your gender kind of thing.
SAM SELLERS:
And it was try and tell me, try and guess, like who’s is who? Because it is such a bizarre thing to sort of to censor and go, you know what? you walk down the beach, you’re going to see a bunch of them just on male bodies, you know?
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[26:23] It’s bizarre. I think you and I were having a conversation before we started recording about how I’d somehow stumbled upon some horrific stuff of what’s going on in the world right now. And I’m like, how is that there? And of course, then a nipple gets banned. Yeah, I don’t understand. And it’s frustrating. If you go and do a whole post and people get their accounts taken down. And yeah.
SAM SELLERS:
[26:50] And it’s hard to sort of help society move, I guess, in a sexually progressive direction when the social media outlets where people are sharing this type of content are so behind. It makes that a difficult conversation to try and be a part of.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[27:12] Absolutely. Like I’ve had a picture of a penis that was drawn as well, and it was just talking about, this was years ago, but it was like flaccid and something. I can’t remember what we were talking about. But I remember they just took it off, like it was a drawing. And it was an educational place. Anyway. And vulvas have had that happen where I’ve done something and did this whole big thing and then it got taken down. And yeah, it’s frustrating.
SAM SELLERS:
[27:38] Social media world. I feel like it’s one of those spaces where you just never know what you’re going to get. It’s just such a mixed bag.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[27:48] Yeah. And I suppose I’m kind of weirdly having some discussions with you and many other people about how I feel about the space. And so hence why I’ve never gone into the other ones, because I feel like I’m just stuck. I gave up Facebook years ago, but I struggle with it. Like you can see how it can be wonderful. But I also, I don’t know, I knew a time when I didn’t have that. Especially in this space, because there are so many the therapists on there and all of that. And I know that for some people who can’t maybe get to therapy, that it’s access stuff, financial, whatever. And a little bit from there can be helpful. But I just think there’s not a lot of room for nuance and can be quite binary. And that’s how most things are not like that. The world we live in the grey, right? It’s not that. So, if you say you might know this, you write a post about something, and people lose their mind when you didn’t specifically talk about the exact thing. And that is very exhausting having to do that where you literally make no money. Because, as I said, have refused to take money for a number of things because I will not go against my values. And I really, really don’t. All I think about is my potential clients, past clients, whatever. I’m like, there’s no way I’m going to say this because I’m selling out, and I’m not going to sell out to make money and make my page bigger and pretend that these things they’re trying to get me to sell work, because they don’t.
SAM SELLERS:
[29:11] And we’ve talked about those products, and there’s also like webinars and courses that just give the impression that you can fix all those things in like this two-hour course, or like this short window of time. And I think anybody who knows anything about the human complexities, that it is not that simple. It is so much more complex than just doing a quick course or a quick webinar, and it being super generalized. The courses and things like that are wonderful and have their place. But the reality is that they’re general and they’re not personalized, and they are never going to be an everything for somebody to be able to work through those issues. You are never going to be able to pop a pill and it’d be okay.
[30:13] You know, I have talked about medication even, from that standpoint, and medication can’t be a fix at all. Yes, there are benefits of things, but pop a pill and think that everything is going to suddenly be okay and fix your sexual desire and libido.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[30:32] Yeah. Certainly, for libido pills anyway, there’s no way. That’s why I refuse. If you can tell me please, why you think these are going to work, show me how. I’ve been in this area for a long time, and I still haven’t found one that works. And that’s the thing. But it’s sad because people go out and buy that and then still think “what’s wrong with me”.
SAM SELLERS:
[30:49] Absolutely. I’ve had people, particularly couples, who have said “I’ve been told to get these libido pills” and I’m just like… Oh, it’s such a nuanced conversation to go, that’s just like not going to cut it. Really. All it is going to do is going to cycle back and make you feel like you are somehow not worthy or is there something wrong with you? Because these pills that are suddenly supposed to be working for everybody else is not working. So, “what’s wrong with me?”
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[31:26] It might be a placebo effect of kind of like feeling a bit energetic, but that’s not going to deal with it. That won’t address any of the other stuff that’s going in the bedroom or wherever you’re having sex, right? And even the vibrators, right? They are great for lots of different things, but I’m saying if there’s other stuff going on that also isn’t. So, I think a lot of people, like Cosmo and Claire, all the things I grew up with, like “how to give the best blow job”, and I don’t do a lot of that. It’s funny. Like there are sexual spaces or on Instagram where people do that. It is way beyond that. Yes, I get specific sometimes around things, but it’s way more than that. Like it’s not just that.
SAM SELLERS:
[32:1] And I think that’s probably a great segue into what is it like in a session with you? What is it like in a sex therapy session?
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[32:19] Well, first off, I hope that they feel comfortable with me. And I always acknowledge that I’ve been on the other end of couples therapy and things like that. So, I know it can be weird. I always at the front say to people, “if you get to the end of this and I happen to say let’s come back again. And you don’t feel like you vibe, click, whatever word you want to use with me, don’t do it.” Because I think it’s very important that people, we see have the credentials they say they have. But I think particularly here in this space that you want to feel like I get you in some way. We don’t have to agree on everything, but that’s a big part. But I do say, “I hope that you just feel comfy with me.” I get called a sexpert a lot. And I try to say to people, “I don’t know everything about sex because nobody does.”
[33:00] So, trying to kind of just do that and then give them a bit of a, “this is how we’re going to work”. And then I asked them, sometimes they’ve written in the little pre thing a bit, sometimes people write an essay in there, sometimes people write nothing or one word. And we unpack that and go from there. So, it could end up being that I do a bit of like psychosexual education where I’m showing images of vulvas, not my own, it’s a drawing and I’m just talking about that, or I’ve got my little clitoris, the 3D thing. So, yeah, I probably do a bit of that just sort of running through those things and unpacking myths and stuff. But I think, personally, I feel like people do feel comfortable with me. Some of them have obviously, that’s why I put videos on my website, because I like people to know and hear me, you can Google and hear me. So, if you think I’m not your person, then you don’t come.
[33:51] But I think I try to be exactly like this. it’s just a thing. Don’t think I know more than you, kind of thing. And yes, I mean, I do forget probably because I’ve been in this area for so long. I do have lots of information I can share, but a lot of it’s just trying to unpack things, make them feel comfortable. And yeah, I do sometimes hear things that they’ve probably never told anyone. And I will say, “look, I’ve heard lots. You’re not going to shock me. I honestly don’t get shocked, in this space anyway.”
SAM SELLERS:
[34:22] And it’s probably important for people to know that in this space you can get as detailed as you feel comfortable.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[34:37] I do warn people, I say, “I’m probably going to ask you questions that maybe nobody’s never ever asked you before. And you don’t have to answer them, obviously.” But sometimes you see, and they can usually see where I’m going. Because I interject sometimes just trying to, when they’re talking, because they’ve said something and they’re just brushed over it, I’m like often clarifying, “what do you mean by sex?” And so, there’s all this kind of back and forth a bit about just going, “where did that idea come from?” And so, we’re unpacking that. So, yeah. And they do, sometimes they get very detailed because they need to, and they want to say this is what happened. So, we might be saying, “yeah, try your side” or if you’re talking about orgasms, but yeah, other times it’s just that unpacking, realizing that they’ve got some shame there they didn’t know. And we’re talking about the layers of where that came from kind of thing.
SAM SELLERS:
[35:26] Do you find that it is more difficult for certain genders to seek sex therapy?
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[35:35] Yeah. I suppose we know that men, cis men tend to sort of, what is that? I remember when I worked in a sexual health space, the doctors used to say there that like men will just turn up when they’re like dragging their legs broken. They really take a long time, which I know for many reasons, right? Because of patriarchy, which impacts them too. But I certainly get lots of men solo as well. And they sometimes are very open with me once we start talking, like I think sometimes they’re not maybe talking to a partner or whatever, or they’ve just got their stuff and they’ve never, ever unpacked it before. And obviously once we start talking, I hope they’re feeling comfy and then they just let it out and they’ll say things they have never ever told anybody that, and they’re 60, 70 years old and they’ve never said it.
SAM SELLERS:
[36:25] Actually, another great point, which is sexology would not be for young people. I would imagine you would see people older.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[36:35] All ages. I think my oldest clients were 89 and 90 and they were living in a space where they must have made a comment to one of the workers who they called a taxi. This is when I was doing face-to-face in Adelaide, and they came, and we saw each other three times. And then they wrote me a card like in like beautiful cursive writing, like my grandmother. But yes, we unpack some stuff and then they wrote me this beautiful card because they did have sex, and I was so happy for them. So, every now and then I get a young person who’s perhaps attending like a family. So, maybe it’s the parent and we’re talking about them just working through being trans or something like that. But I tend to obviously now, because it’s private, so people are paying, usually they’re sort of 20 something, but yeah, I get a huge range of ages. But I have worked in other areas, I used to do like sex education with parents and caregivers and stuff. So, I think the youngest client I had was five or six.
SAM SELLERS:
[37:32] Yeah. Because I was thinking the opposite end of the age spectrum is needed because there are conversations around consent and particularly queer sex education that you are not getting in school. I mean, to be quite honest, I don’t even remember the sex education I got in school. And if there was any, it wasn’t very good because I don’t remember it. And certainly nothing that would open the conversation for anything that was outside a heteronormative picture. So, that sort of world still needs to be talked about in an age-appropriate way for people who are often, I think, forgotten in that conversation as well. They shield the children, protect the children. And I sort of go, “well, actually some of these conversations will do that.”
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
Will do that,
SAM SELLERS:
[38:28] Yeah, exactly.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[38:31] Because the abstinence, abstinence only sort of space, we know that studies have all shown it doesn’t do it. In fact, it’s increased teen pregnancies and all that sort of stuff. Whereas we know if they’ve had a more comprehensive sex education, they will often delay. So, in countries where sex is very much talked about and open, they have a delay, they’re delaying first. And again, I don’t like using the term virginity and lose virginity, I think that’s got a whole lot of crappy contexts. So, their first sexual debut with another person is later than other places. And that makes sense because often you’re talking to them and then they’re like curious, because people get scared to think that young people are horny and have feelings and all of that. But they often make better decisions, or they’ll delay it, which is great. Like they’ll turn up and go somewhere together and get some contraception or something. They’ll make a lot of good decisions.
SAM SELLERS:
[39:21] Yeah. I think the notion that if we don’t talk about it, it shields them needs to go in the garbage. And not just with sex, with other things. Because the less we talk about alcohol, drugs or porn or whatever it is, the less you talk about it, the more curious they are, the more they’re going to find that information out from other sources. And sometimes those sources are not ideal or not education based.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[39:57] And then they keep it all inside or they just take it like even when you mentioned porn, people are horrified, they’re like, “No we need to not talk about that.” No, you need a porn literacy. Everybody needs porn literacy, just like media literacy, so you can critique what you see because we don’t know. People have access to it now all the time. So, if they’re not talking to you or and I see something, at least if you’ve had some conversation before around “that’s porn world, cool. And that’s real people having sex. But it’s just like Instagram, there’s filters, there’s things, it’s not real. Then there’s real sex. Let’s talk about that. The feelings and the things you must do there.” So, if we don’t, they’ve got no framework to look at that and they’ll just think it’s real, like the whole thing, because it is naked people.
[40:43] And just their uncomfortability and all of that, I think if you make space for that, give them they can raise sexually intelligent young people, right?
SAM SELLERS:
[40:49] Absolutely. I remember saying to a mum that didn’t want to have that conversation with her teenage son, she was a single mom. And I remember having that conversation with her, she already knows that he’s watching porn and it’s like, if you’re not having that conversation with him, what stops him from thinking that this is the reality, that this is exactly what sex looks like? If this is his only form of sex education, what is he learning from that?
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[41:26] Exactly. And you don’t have to watch porn. I would say to parents, “you don’t have to watch porn to talk about it”. So, if you’re worried that you’re going to tell them that you watch porn or whatever, I’m like “no, you don’t have to drink alcohol to have a conversation with the kids about that too.” So, just talking about, “hey, I know this stuff is everywhere. If you ever see anything and it makes you feel uncomfortable, talk to me. Or if you really want to get into it say, what do you think that was happening here in some of the stuff you’re seeing? What’s happening to the women? Like what’s going on?” And you can have a really good conversation about a whole bunch of things by doing that, you know?
SAM SELLERS:
[41:56] Absolutely. And I think we have so much more understanding, particularly for the younger generation, that the necessity to know the correct terms for your genitals is just vital. A colleague and I would run protective behaviours in schools and just many children who don’t know the correct terms for their body parts. And you obviously get that silly playfulness, because their kids, that should never deter you.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
No, it’s part of it. Expect it.
SAM SELLERS:
Yeah, exactly.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[42:36] I work with adults, and they laugh their heads off, too. Little ones, when I do it, they would ask amazing questions and I just love it. But yeah, that’s right. I think that’s what people think that you’re telling little kids how to have sex. No, the sex education we’re talking about starts from the get-go. And it could be just naming body parts, talking about asking, I just need to change a nappy, or I need to do this, or start having, showing that we ask and respect their bodies. There are many ways to do that. And people just take it away.
SAM SELLERS:
[43:10] Yeah, absolutely. And I think that conversation and narrative is starting to slowly change, and people are starting to see that this is not a sex thing. It’s a safety thing, that this might protect your children by knowing the correct terms of their body, by knowing that what is safe and unsafe touch, what is wanted and unwanted touch, how do they tell the difference between them. And moving away from that’s not sexualizing our children. That’s protecting, arming them with skills and safety mechanisms to keep themselves safe.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[43:52] And then I suppose talking about masturbation. Obviously, I suppose I sometimes probably do appear blasé, but I’m like well, if your kid’s sitting at the table and they’re rubbing their vulva or penis, we just say, “Hey, okay, that might feel good. But we just we don’t fart or pick our nose at the table. Can you go in your room?” I think even if you’re uncomfortable, just do that. Send them the message that, “Oh, pleasure yourselves. Okay. But we just don’t do it here”.
SAM SELLERS:
We don’t do it at the dining table.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[44:17] Exactly. That’s how I sort of put it. And I know people get uncomfortable because they’re still dealing with their own stuff, but you can fake it, fake that, just do it. Because what ends up happening is I see the people who they, one thing, stuck in their head, they got busted, somebody’s walked in and they were masturbating or whatever. And then they got everything, [inaudible], they got blasted whatever. And then all they remember is that, like that starts the shame rather than just going, “Hey, that’s just something you do in your bedroom or private time” or whatever.
SAM SELLERS:
[44:47] Yeah, absolutely. I think the bigger deal that’s made of it, the bigger deal it’s going to have in their entire world and just that huge spiral that will just continue the older they get. And then they will be the parent who is doing the exact same thing to their child 20 or 30 years later.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[45:10] And it’s amazing how long they carry that. I’m talking to them as adults and then they’ll tell me stories like that and they’re crying about it and just feeling awful. Or like where they’ve children have had some play, sexual play with another person or whoever’s there, which people freak out when I say this, but usually children will do this with whoever’s around, which is whether it’s a sibling or a cousin, if they’re an only child, like that’s what they do if they’re going to do it. And often you’re putting your adult head, you’re interpreting that in a very different way. You know, it’s not an uncommon thing for children to get curious and play with whomever they have access to. And yeah, so parents often have freaked out about that. So, we just talk about that. This is not uncommon at all. It’s about just a bit of curiosity. And then yeah, often though the people talking to me have had something like that happen and then they’re like, “what’s wrong with me? When I was five, I kissed this person. We did this”. And so, we’re unpacking that.
[46:09] Of course I’m checking in to make sure that it wasn’t something where someone did have a bit more power over them or whatever. Often, it’s just whoever, “Oh, I once kissed my brother” and they’re like five or six, and I’m okay. And then they’re “yeah, we just tried something because we saw it” and I try to explain it feels weird because we know that we wouldn’t do that now. But often when you’re that age, you don’t know that stuff. You’re just there. You’re doing things. I mean, again, there’s often things that aren’t okay, but quite often it’s just that. But they’ve carried it this whole time and then blurted something out to me and they’re like, “is there something wrong with me?” I went, “no.” So, all of that.
SAM SELLERS:
[46:51] And it does tend to spiral into something that it’s not, as well. It just spirals out of control. And then suddenly, what was just born out of imagination and curiosity and maybe just replicating something that they saw on TV.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[47:12] Or playing like mum and dad.
SAM SELLERS:
[47:14] Or watching mum and dad, exactly. You know? And so, it just spirals into—
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[47:20] This whole big thing. Because they put stuff like, especially if it’s with a sibling, which again, it often is because they’re who you around and its opportunistic stuff in the way that they’re just, “Oh, we’re in the bathroom. I’m looking at yours.” That kind of stuff that they have made this whole thing of shame. And so, once we unpack that, talking about that is not an uncommon behaviour. And always obviously checking in to make sure they didn’t feel coerced and that’s a different feeling. Even again, though, sometimes they’re still very, very young so we’re talking about people not having, if they’ve had no sex ed, knowing you’re not supposed to do this. Or if someone’s busted them, the hell that happened after that. Some people have told me the most horrific things where they would never allowed see that friend again, and all stuff like horrible, horrible things. And they carried that right into wherever they are now, you know?
SAM SELLERS:
[48:10] Absolutely. The extreme reaction causes extreme shame, they mirror one another. You know, I remember hearing a story that a parent had literally taken the door off the kid’s bedroom after being caught masturbating because that was disgusting. Like you’re inciting, and there was obviously religious stuff, you’re inciting evil spirits. Oh, my goodness, I’ve even seen things about, particularly people who have a vulva, who are self-pleasuring, that that’s the devil doing that. You’re inciting the devil doing that. And so, I remember this story vividly that they literally took the door off the hinges and put it in the garage so that this this poor young person had no privacy, no sense of self autonomy, and the shame spiral that it started.
[49:19] That didn’t just affect their sex life, I think it’s important to note that this doesn’t just affect your sex life, that’s going to affect your relationships, your image, the way that you view yourself in the world, the way you interact with other people, your social connections, all sorts of different things. It’s not just you got caught doing that, you may not do that for the rest of your life. It’s much more complex and more nuanced than that.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[49:49] Absolutely. Interrupts a nice, healthy sexual development when that happens.
SAM SELLERS:
[49:55] Yeah, absolutely. So, this tends to be my favourite part of every episode, which is hearing what myth people want to smash about the world.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[50:06] So, I’m just going to say this. There’s a few, I’ve got plenty, but you know, I feel like this one, because I see it so often it’s particularly because mostly it’s cis women who come to see me, who say this the most. That they think they have low, and I’m saying that in quotations, “low libido.” Did you see that? I was just going to say, this has been an update on zoom. And when you use your hand, I’ve had fireworks, which funnily enough, in the middle of having a session with someone about orgasm, it went off, and then balloons.
SAM SELLERS:
Oh, my goodness.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
Everybody’s trying to turn it off. It’s weird because there’s a reaction thing on the bottom that you can do hands and stuff like this. So, that’s a new one. I’ve had fireworks, balloons, and now confetti.
SAM SELLERS:
[50:47] For people who are listening, please jump on YouTube and find that section.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[50:54] And it’s an update. So, I don’t know if there’s a fault there, because I’ve tried three times to turn it off, but it was so weird, but very weird when I was in the middle of doing it. But funnily that somehow went on about orgasms and the couple were laughing hilariously, but yes. So, what I wanted to say is yes, that one of the things I see the most is particularly women, cis women will come to me, and they say they’re broken, right? Because they’ve got low or no libido. And what I want to say is I think that that is not the case. I think that what’s broken is the societal messaging around sexuality and that there are many ways arousal shows up. And that I don’t even know what I even think about the word libido. I just think there are some people who make decisions to have sex based on a lot of things. So, what I’m saying is you’re not broken, and we shouldn’t be pathologizing this like low libidos. I think everything gets medicalized as if something’s wrong.
SAM SELLERS:
[51:48] I hate pathologizing things in general. I don’t think anybody is broken like a toy that requires repair or needs fixing.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[52:01] And particularly for women. I’m sorry, but I feel like they’re not feeling like sex— Look, there’s obviously so many reasons, but I often say they’re valid. It’s a valid response to not feel like sex with what you just told me is going on in your life. Do you know what I mean? That’s normal.
SAM SELLERS:
[52:21] Yes. And to think that it is not connected to something else. Like there is always a connection there.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[52:27] And you know what? Some people just don’t want a lot of sex or don’t even think about it at all. And why does that have to be— It’s okay. Sorry, we are very diverse. We’re similar in lots of ways, but humans are also diverse. So, it makes sense that there’s some humans who never think about it.
SAM SELLERS:
[52:42] Absolutely. And yes. I will tell my couples, you know what? if you want to schedule sex, schedule sex. Like if that’s what you need to do.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
Yeah, they hate the word, it’s the word, right?
SAM SELLERS:
[52:54] But it brings up that connotation that it’s not wanted or that “we’re not prioritising it”.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[53:00] And I think you just said the word, prioritising. Because if you change the word schedule and you’re prioritising sex, and you want to, right? If you want to, that’s a good thing.
SAM SELLERS:
[53:11] Absolutely. I go, “well, by scheduling it, by putting it—
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
As a thing to do.
SAM SELLERS:
It is prioritising it. That’s the essence of what you are doing. You are going, “this is important to us. We both want it. We want to make sure that it doesn’t get left aside. It’s something that we both value and prioritise. Scheduling it essentially is at its essence prioritising it.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[53:39] And I just feel like, seriously, with all the stuff that’s going on, I’m surprised anyone’s having sex to be honest. Do you know what I mean? And I think people get so worried about the fact they’re not having sex that becomes almost like a break in there, and it’s like trying to let go. This is a very common thing, especially, mostly, especially so in monogamous relationships. So, it’s only the two people that they’re made a deal to be sexual with kind of thing. So, and long-term, the longer-term relationship, there’s all stuff there is expected. Like it’s like not making it such a thing like there’s something wrong.
SAM SELLERS:
[54:18] Absolutely. And I think it is important to sort of go, like you said, if you don’t want to have sex and you don’t have a reason, that’s okay. You don’t need a reason. It’s perfectly valid as a full sentence. You don’t need to have a long-winded story to tell your partner, your spouse about why you don’t want to be sexually intimate with them. You just say no.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[54:47] And that, what you just said is what I spend a lot of time doing because they, for some reason, it’s like they’ll say no to something else, but this, because there’s so much stuff tied up with the sexual stuff, right? So that’s exactly right, you know? Yeah.
SAM SELLERS:
[55:02] And there might be a reason and you aren’t comfortable sharing it or whatever it is, but no is perfectly valid. And I’ve even said to a couple who, one of the people in the relationship, I was just tired. I was just tired.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
And that’s it. It’s not, “I don’t want to be with you” You’re not a good—” No, I’m literally tired.
SAM SELLERS:
But their partner was “yeah, but shouldn’t this overpower that tiredness?” And we’re like
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
That’s the difference, right? And that’s where I talk about, “you’re one of those humans who does have an overpowering sense and they can just overcome everything, even their tiredness and get sexy, right? Off they go”. But they’re with someone who doesn’t. And they can’t get it. So, they don’t understand because they can. And that’s that thing of having that conversation about the way arousal is. For a lot of people, that is a big break. They’re like “are you kidding? I just want to go to sleep. I am not doing any exercise right now.” You know?
SAM SELLERS:
Absolutely.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
But they don’t understand because they clearly don’t experience that.
SAM SELLERS:
[56:10] Yes. And so, it just spirals into something that doesn’t need to be. The partner wanting sex feels unwanted, unloved, rejected. And then the other person feels like there’s something wrong with them. “Why can’t I just turn it on? Why can’t I do that? Maybe I’m not attracted to them.” And it spirals into something that it just doesn’t need to be, when in reality it’s just two different people, somebody’s tired, let’s go to sleep.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[56:50] Yes, that’s pretty much a lot of what my work is, is that stuff.
SAM SELLERS:
[56:57] And I think if anything, people get out of this conversation that it’s not always just about sex going to a sex therapist. It’s connected to a multitude of different things. And it’s not just going there, talking about the actual act of having sex or talking about foreplay or things like that. You know, a parent can go to a sex therapist to talk about how to educate my kid.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[57:26] Sometimes I have mum come because their kids come out, whether it’s trans, queer, whatever. And we just have a space for unpacking what that feels like.
SAM SELLERS:
It is a much more diverse picture than perhaps what social media, perhaps what TV shows and documentaries get credit for, which is that it’s just—
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
I’m not going to tell you to steam your vagina.
SAM SELLERS:
Oh my gosh. That just sounds like the most mortifying experience. But it’s just so much more than just like sex and body parts and pleasure and things like that. It is relationships and social connections and consent and parenting and all sorts of different things. And so, I think it is an ever evolving conversation.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[58:16] Yes, it is. Whatever, keep going.
SAM SELLERS:
It is a slowly evolving conversation, but I hope that at least more doors start to open.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
Yeah. And people can feel less like broken and do what they need to do in their specific relationship, if they’re in one. Not worry about what some of those podcasters are saying, “you’ve got to have sex three times a week or your whole relationship is over.” Don’t listen to that. Unless both of you want sex three times a week. Cool then, go with that.
SAM SELLERS:
[58:47] In which case, go for it. Sounds interesting, go for it.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
Do whatever. Yeah, exactly. Don’t worry about it, but they do, some really take that stuff and like think about “Okay, we’ve got to do this. I’m like, no, you don’t. Unless you really want to.
SAM SELLERS:
[59:01] Yes, exactly. And there is a lot of information that gets pumped into your feeds, your social media, your news outlets. There is a lot.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[59:11] Some people who have never studied human sexuality or relationships even, and they are saying all this stuff like it’s gospel.
SAM SELLERS:
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s easy to understand how people don’t know what to believe. They don’t know what is what. And so, go and find somebody and have an actual conversation as opposed to reading and reading and reading, and make sure that those people that you’re having a conversation with know what they’re talking about, and they have information. That they’re not just someone who did a three month like coaching course and thinks that they’re a sexuality coach. So, yes. Well, thank you so much.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
[59:55] Thank you. Always a good conversation.
SAM SELLERS:
[59:59] I’ve loved having conversations with everybody.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
Awesome.
SAM SELLERS:
It’s been great.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
Right. Thanks for having me.
SAM SELLERS:
Thanks, Naomi.
NAOMI HUTCHINGS:
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
SAM SELLERS:
[01:00:08] We hope you enjoyed joining us Inside The Therapy Room. Thanks for listening.