Ever had someone just want to slap a label on you? Maybe your experiences of therapy in the past haven’t been beneficial? Perhaps you just love the movie Inside Out movie.
This episode with Stef, an IFS Therapist is for you! In today’s episode Stef lets you in on what Internal Family Systems is all about. Where we discuss how IFS was so powerful for Stef personally and how it values human uniqueness. We also talk about some of the misconceptions people have about IFS.
Our latest episode is now live on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and all major podcast platforms. And guess what? The transcript is available below for your reading pleasure. Happy listening!
More details about Stef and her practice can be found at https://www.arenacounselling.com.au
Transcript
SAM SELLERS:
[00:11] Hello and welcome to Inside the Therapy Room. I’m your host, Sam Sellers. I am a registered therapist, a wife, and a fur mama, and I am passionate about breaking down the barriers and stigma attached to therapy. I want to begin by honouring the traditional custodians of the land we live and work on. Today, Stef is in Murramarang country and Sam is on Gundungurra land. We pay our respects to the elder’s past, present and emerging, for they hold the memories, the traditions, and cultures of our First Nations people. We must always remember that the land below our feet is, was and always will be Aboriginal land.
[00:55] Today we’re chatting to Stef Marris, who is a trauma-informed counsellor from Arena Counselling in Canberra, Australia. Stef encourages her clients to be curious about their internal world and to heal the parts of themselves that hold their emotional wounds. She has a wealth of study behind her and both personal and professional experience that informs her practice greatly. Stef has a special interest in working with complex trauma, as well as teens and young adults. Tune in to hear her share about working with the approach Internal Family Systems, or IFS, talking about why IFS is so powerful and how it values our human uniqueness. The impact IFS has had on her own personal therapy journey, what it’s like inside her therapy room, and what myth she would love to smash. We hope you enjoy joining us inside the therapy room.
[01:55] Welcome, Stef. Thank you so much for joining us.
STEF MARRIS:
Thank you so much for inviting me to join you.
SAM SELLERS:
[02:00] I’m really excited about this episode because it’s an area that I will admit I know a little about, not enough. It’s certainly not an area that I know a lot about, but I know that it can be very powerful. So, I’m excited to chat about this. So, tell us what are you here to chat about?
STEF MARRIS:
[02:28] Okay, well, you have asked me to have a chat with you about internal family systems or what is commonly known as IFS. So, do you want me to give you a bit of a spiel at this point about what IFS is?
SAM SELLERS:
I would love that. Yep, amazing.
STEF MARRIS:
[02:43] Internal family systems, the name sort of suggests that it’s like based on families. And so, a lot of people believe that it is family therapy. It grew out of the principles of family therapy, but it’s taken inside. So, it’s a concept that we all have a multiple mind. So, not dissociative identity disorder or what has been known as multiple personality disorder, although this IFS can be used with DID. It is generally that we have multiplicity of the mind that we have an inherent and pure self that is undamaged, which is the core of who we are, and then we have various parts about ourselves which are still us, but you could refer to them as like aspects of our personality and they take on different roles in our system. Some will be parts that will take on the wound, like an emotional wound if we’re harmed in some way, whether that be like ‘big T Trauma’ like a car accident or something like that, or the other types of traumas, so more your relational trauma that sort of thing. So, they take on the emotional wounds across our lives and they take on the emotional wounds across our lives and they take lifetime. And then the other parts in the system take on a protective role in order that we don’t feel the pain of those wounds.
[03:58] So, they may be commonly known as defence strategies or defensive behaviours. They then take on two forms. So, our protectors will either be reactive, or they’ll be proactive. So, proactive ones are like your high functioning anxiety types, the ones that are click forward manager types, like “I’ve got my shit together, I’m doing my thing, nothing to see here, everything’s great.” And the other types, reactive ones are more like your addictive behaviours. So, the ones that might get involved in drugs or even going to the gym too much, or managing what you eat. So, eating disorders, IFS can be incredibly beneficial to work with eating disorders. It’s incredible across the board and what I really love about it is that it overlays a lot of other therapeutic techniques as well. So, it’s not a simple modality, strict you use IFS and everything else is useless. It is very much complementary with other modalities that exist and has been used in various ways in an integrative way across various human conditions and issues. So, I guess the best sort of example of what I’m talking about is the movie in Inside Out, the kid’s movie.
SAM SELLERS:
[05:15] I was about to say when I first heard of IFS and I first read about it, I instantly had that imagery of the movie Inside Out in my head. And I often do that sort of notion of let’s personify emotion or personify things like that with my clients. And so, I remember when I first read about IFS, it was my first thought was Inside Out. I was like, it’s a perfect depiction of that sort of characterisation internally, almost.
STEF MARRIS:
[05:48] Absolutely. I mean, it wasn’t informed by IFS when it was created, but when it came out, the IFS community were like, “Yes, this is awesome.” Because it is so spot on in many ways, particularly around the way our hearts will be reflective of certain emotional states like joy or fear or disgust, that kind of thing. But our parts are more than just our emotions. They are multi-layered and complex. And it’s such fascinating work to do, to really sort of explore and understand parts. And I am incredibly passionate about it, mostly because my own therapy is internal family systems, the therapy I do personally, and it has been incredibly beneficial and healing for me. You know, I say this to people often, it really helps you have a deeper understanding of yourself, the way you engage with the world, the way that you react to the world, your triggers. Yeah, it really provides that deep insight.
[06:46] But more importantly, the thing that I love about it is that it’s non-pathologizing. The phrase widely used; all parts are welcome. And the founder, Dick Schwartz, has written a book called No Bad Parts. And the general premise there is that all behaviour or the behaviour of different parts is well-intended, even if it’s maybe not socially acceptable. The intent is either to protect or there’s a wound that’s activated. And so, if there is behaviour that’s not appropriate or not liked, we all have a shadow side, we all have aspects to ourselves that we don’t like. When you can be curious about that and show yourself compassion for why these parts exist in your system, and this is so cliche to say, but it absolutely is a game changer when you do show yourself that compassion and can be with those difficult parts. It’s incredible.
SAM SELLERS:
[07:48] I find that the most transformative moment for somebody is when we can move from the idea of fixing to understanding. And I think it changes the game. It literally just changes the direction that you are going to go in because suddenly you are not broken. You are not a computer that needs to be fixed or rebooted or have a new hard drive. Everything is there for a purpose and a reason, let’s understand it and let’s hold it differently. I think that that’s probably the most transformative moment for people is when that change can happen from their own perspective. It’s nothing fancy about that. It’s just a change in mindset almost.
STEF MARRIS:
[08:35] A hundred percent. I don’t know about you, but I can’t count the number of times new clients who’ve sat down in my room and when we’ve sort of had that initial conversation checking in with the goals that they want to achieve in the future. Without a doubt it’s like, “I need strategies to cope. I need this fixed. I need to be different.” It’s like, “No, you’re actually pretty awesome as you are and what is going on for you right now, and the way that you’re reacting, even the behaviour you don’t like is valid and has a place here.” And like you said, we just need to understand it.
SAM SELLERS:
[09:10] I am going to throw a curveball at you. And I don’t know whether you are going to have an answer for this. So, if you don’t, that’s okay. But obviously my area is with religious trauma. So, I’m thinking about how it can connect or disconnect with people in that the heart of IFS is that your inherent sense of self is good and perfect as it is. And how someone works with somebody who perhaps has the worldview of a Christian faith, for instance, where the inherent self is fallen and sinful and needs to be fixed and saved and all that sort of doctrine side of it, and how those two things work, because it’s a little bit of a curveball.
STEF MARRIS:
[10:10] It’s okay. It’s okay.
SAM SELLERS:
You know, I think there is a big population of people who have that core belief and that understanding that who they are at its core is something that does need to be fixed and something that does need to be saved and redeemed. So, I’m wondering whether you’ve seen how that can sort of work or blend or not blend.
STEF MARRIS:
[10:37] Look, I wouldn’t say that I’ve got direct experience with it. What I can say is that IFS evolved in the United States, a heavily, highly religious country, particularly Christian. And so, there are several practitioners with that spiritual overlay. Reading through Dick Schwartz’s book, and it’s been a long time since I’ve read it. He has a particular section on it where he sort of does look at the different spiritual aspects of people’s lives. And speaking from a Christian point of view, I was raised Catholic. So, my point of reference is God, his son, and the Holy Spirit. And my understanding is that the emphasis is very much on the Holy Spirit, that the self could be seen as an embodiment of the Holy Spirit. And that’s sort of how it can be brought into session.
[11:26] A couple of years ago, it may have been last year, I’ve totally lost track of the last few years. I did sit in on a webinar with Dick Schwartz and an Australian lady called Stefanie Mitchell, who’s a level three trained practitioner. And it was around IFS and spirituality. And it was an incredible presentation. And it was very, very enlightening, very much touching on how IFS works in this space. One of the things that’s interesting is the concept of spiritual bypass. And I know that that’s not IFS specific, is sort of out there in the in the broader world. And that is this idea that we use religion, or we use things like meditation, or mindfulness, or specific spiritual practices, to avoid getting to the middle of the meaty part of the problem, and that is that there’s a wound there, and that wound needs to be healed.
[12:23] And so, those practices are sort of seen in the IFS lens, they’re seen as what’s referred to as a manager part. So, one of these defensive protective parts, this manager comes in, and it’s like, “I know how to fix this, let’s do some yoga, or let’s do some meditation, or let’s sit in deep prayer.” And that has incredible grounding benefits, but it doesn’t heal the wound. And that’s where IFS is different, it does avoid spiritual bypass. In fact, we’re looking for protectors, those manager parts, that will try and interfere and get in the way of us being able to find that exiled wound in the system, to be able to work with it and heal it. Does that make sense?
SAM SELLERS:
[13:07] Absolutely. And I guess, in the back of my head, before you even mentioned it, I was like spiritual bypassing is such a huge part of religious trauma and that pain that is there. And it is a go-to mechanism that is used in the church. And so, I was sort of in the back of my head going “this definitely is applied in that area.” And so, yeah, I love that. You mentioned that you were drawn to IFS because it’s something that’s been powerful for you personally. What about professionally? In terms of what drew you towards IFS?
STEF MARRIS:
[13:50] Look, I think it just made sense to me. So, I was still completing the latter half of my master’s when I opened my private practice. And I took a long time to finish that masters. It was a painstaking process. But I had to write an essay for my trauma unit. And we had a case study that we needed to address. And so, from memory, it’s been a long time since I’ve read the essay that I wrote. But the case study was an Indigenous youth, and we had to draw on two modalities to sort of put together a treatment plan to work with this case study in response to it. And the two that I chose were narrative therapy and IFS, because it really made sense to me in terms of working with the principles of Indigenous therapy and what have you. And that’s an area that I really value. I don’t know enough about. So, I don’t want to claim to be an expert by any means. But certainly, writing that essay it was just eye-opening for me in terms of how that would work, how IFS would work in that case.
[14:56] And the more I read about it, the more I really sort of thought it made sense in so many ways. And then I did an introductory course, oh my God, literally moments before COVID hit. I was in Sydney in early March 2020, and did an introductory course with Stefanie Mitchell, who I mentioned earlier. And then we were both heading back to our respective cities, went to the airport together, chatted on the way out there. And so, really got to get some deep understanding or further depth in what her initial training offered, maintain contact with her. She was incredibly supportive over the time I completed my master’s. On one occasion she let me call her and pick her brain for another essay that I had to write.
[15:49] And she really helped me with preparing for that case study. And just from there it really grew. And then she invited me to start doing my own therapy with an IFS therapist. And yeah, far out. It was incredible from the very beginning.
SAM SELLERS:
[16:01] I love when stuff meshes personally and professionally, and it sort of flicks. One of the things that has been a common thread in all these chats that I’ve been having is that these niches that people fall into, it tends to happen quite organically. And it’s not just from a professional point of view, there tends to be a personal nature that is alongside of it.
STEF MARRIS:
That makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah.
SAM SELLERS:
And you sort of alluded to a couple in terms of eating disorders, things like that? Who is going to benefit from this type of therapy?
STEF MARRIS:
[16:38] I think the question is, who isn’t going to? If I’m honest, I know that sounds grandiose.
SAM SELLERS:
Oh, I love that.
STEF MARRIS:
[16:45] But I really do think it cuts across because we all have parts. That’s the whole premise of this model, like even decision making. “Oh, there’s a part of me that wants to do this. And there’s a part of me that wants to do that. I’m not sure where I’m going to go.” It really is effective in so many ways. So, I can work with someone on an incredibly deep level, sort of really going into that deep unconscious mind in many ways, or I could just be sitting and having a chat with someone, and they’d be talking through the problem, and I’ll be like, “I’m hearing a part of you is maybe doing this. And another part of you is thinking something altogether different. And maybe they’re in conflict with each other.” And they’ll be like, “Yes, yes, that’s exactly what’s going on.” So, it really is, I think, something that can benefit everyone. I do think, though, with the more complex mental health conditions, yes, it can be used. But there are incredibly well-trained professionals who work in that space with this model.
[17:47] I don’t think it’s something where a level one practitioner like myself can just pick up and go, “Oh, yeah, I can work with this.” And I think we were sort of talking offline about this earlier. It’s an area of therapeutic work that requires specific training, even though the concepts are palatable across all landscapes. The actual techniques and the work require specific training.
SAM SELLERS:
[18:14] And I think there’s a few different modalities that would fall into that category of needing that very specific training. And all of them do sort of entail aspects that a lot of therapists would use in their sessions. You know, like I said, I will use that sort of approach of personifying things. And I obviously don’t know a lot about IFS. I’ve certainly not trained in it. And yet there are still aspects of different modalities that are being taken into the room. But I think you’re right. There are certain modalities and approaches that do need that very specific training, particularly if you are going to advertise or market that that is an approach that you use. You want to be able to sort of back that up with sound knowledge as well.
STEF MARRIS:
[19:03] And look on that, the IFS Institute is very particular about how people brand themselves. So, I can refer to myself as an IFS practitioner because I’m level one trained. Anyone who’s sort of, that initial training that I did, I was able to call myself IFS informed. And that’s a real, real distinction. And then, I’m still undecided about this myself, people can go into a certification process, so there’s the three levels. So, I’m level one trained, there’s level two and level three. I am hopeful at some point soon, I’ll get onto level two training, but it’s so popular now that it’s so impossible to get into the training. But yeah, so beyond the level three, there’s the certification. So, there’s a real legitimate framework for governance around use and application of it.
SAM SELLERS:
[19:56] Amazing. Podcast is called Inside the Therapy Room. What is it like for somebody, if they were to go and see an IFS practitioner, what are they going to expect, I guess, in comparison to what we see as typical talk therapy?
STEF MARRIS:
[20:15] So, it really depends. Like the way that I work with IFS is still very integrative, as I said. So, for the most part, it will look like talk therapy. Other IFS practitioners might be specifically IFS. So, it might help if I sort of explain the techniques that’s used. So, it’s referred to as insight. So, essentially what that means is that what we’re aiming to do is get the person to go inside and get a sense of themselves and understand their internal system. And that varies from person to person. Some people are very visual. Some people are very audio. Some people are very somatic, and it does apply very much across the board with all those. An insight session looks like a guided meditation. So, someone will close their eyes. They will reflect inward. We’ll sort of ground them with sort of a technique like focusing on breath and what have you. And then we get them to focus on any thoughts, feelings, or physical sensations that are present for them in the moment. Or if there’s a particular issue they want to address or a part that’s already been identified, then we’ll sort of say, “Okay, so just pay attention to where you notice that part in or around your body and get them to really sort of settle and go inward.”
[21:31] And then it’s not like I’m just talking, and they follow my voice. It is interactive in the sense that I will guide them, and I will seek clarification, or I might ask what’s happening for them, what they’re observing. And I will follow a process to help them work with the parts that are showing up. Sometimes, particularly with some parts that show up somatically. So, what by somatic, I mean, you obviously know, but for the general audience, we’re talking about how it shows up in the body. So, the physical presentation of emotional distress. So, say for example, somebody might come in and say, “I’ve got this real niggle in my shoulder. I’m uncomfortable. It’s been driving me crazy.” And I’ll say, “well, why don’t we just take a moment? focus your attention on your shoulder and where you’re feeling that discomfort.” And then we’ll go from there. And you know, most of the time there’s a part attached to it. It’s not to say that the part is in the body, but the part uses the body to communicate and get your attention and try and draw you into whatever’s there that needs work or requires that nurturing at that time.
SAM SELLERS:
[22:41] We’ve talked a little bit about how powerful IFS can be, but I would imagine that for a lot of people going inward is not an easy process, that can be deeply painful and deeply emotional, and is probably not going to look like a one session thing for a lot of people. And I would also be expecting that there could be a deep disconnect from going inward as well if that’s not something that they’re used to doing, or if they’ve been told that their internal narrative is not trustworthy, that that could be incredibly difficult as well, and not an easy process to do.
STEF MARRIS:
[23:25] 100%. And look I agree with you. For many people, their internal landscape is too scary to navigate, and they will avoid it in many ways, overworking, drugs, alcohol, all sorts of stuff, sometimes with violence and aggression. And with IFS we’re primed and ready for that and anticipated in many ways. And we recognize that resistance as a part. So, there’s a part that’s been defensive that is like, “No way, not going there.” So, we know that we need to work with that resistance first. So, we will continue to work with that part until that part feels confident that the work, we’re going to do is not going to be catastrophic for the system. So, another fundamental, premise with IFS is that we don’t go to the wounded part and fix that. You have to go through the layers of defence before you can even get anywhere near that exiled wound, because these defence systems have been set up in such an intricate and delicate way over many, many years.
[24:33] They’re not just going to go, “Oh, okay, we’re in therapy. I’m just going to put everything down and go for a stroll while you have a chat with that wound over there.” A hundred percent it’s the opposite. And so, it is very, very much a focus on building trust with the individual, with their system, with their defensive strategies. And that’s often why, like in terms of the way that I work with IFS, often, unless someone specifically comes to me and says they want IFS used, I will work with them for several sessions before we even get anywhere near doing an insight session. Because they need to have trust in me as the therapist, that I am not going to harm them when their defences are down. So, a lot of the work is very much in that therapeutic relationship first, using the idea of parts and talking about parts and what have you. And then getting to a point where I might say, “sounds like there’s a strong part around this. If it feels right for you, maybe we can go inside and explore what’s going on.” And even then, some people will be like, “no, I’m not ready.”
[25:46] I can do insight sessions with people, and they can have great outcomes. And then they’ll say, “I just need a pause from that for a little while. Can we just talk normally for a while?” And I’ll be like, “sure, let’s go with that.” I mean, other therapists might go, “well, there’s part of you that wants to pause. Can we get to know that?” But I really respect the system because it is deep work at times. If they need a break, I’m not going to force that issue. I really want them to sort of know that there’s that trust there that I’m going to respect what they’re able to do at any point in time.
SAM SELLERS:
[26:20] And I mean, I tend to work quite intuitively with my clients. And so, I always sort of say, “No, our body is much more knowledgeable and intelligent than we often will give it credit for. And if there is something inside of you that’s telling you that we need to slow down or we need to hold off on something, then we want to listen to that because there’s probably a reason for that. And we might not be aware of that reason just yet, but there’s a reason because otherwise it wouldn’t have come up.” And yes, for some people that might just be an avoidance tactic and avoidance strategy, but people are avoiding for a reason. And so, it’s a little bit like that whole concept of people like attention seeking, well, they’re drawing attention for a reason, they’re avoiding for a reason. And so, yeah, I would agree. I think working in that sort of intuitive way sense that yes, there’s probably things to learn out of that, but we don’t need to learn them immediately.
STEF MARRIS:
[27:18] Yeah. And look, you would notice that avoidance or that avoidant part showing up repeatedly across sessions and go, “Okay, so I’m really noticing there’s an avoidant part here. Can we get to know it, please? Let’s see what’s going on here. What are they worried about?” Even naming it in that way is often, oh God, I think there’s a frog outside suddenly. I don’t know if you can hear that. It really sounds like a frog. Anyway.
SAM SELLERS:
People who don’t know, Stef is in the coast now and is in sunshine and beautiful weather. And I’m in Goulburn, which is not too far from where you are normally. And it’s sunny, but it’s not coastal by any means.
STEF MARRIS:
Certainly not frog territory.
SAM SELLERS:
No, not at all. Oh gosh.
STEF MARRIS:
That just totally distracted me. I was like, “my God, what is going on?” Anyway, sorry.
SAM SELLERS:
[28:14] No, that’s okay. We were just talking about we will learn things as they come up and things like that, but it doesn’t necessarily need to be done right away in the moment. I think pace is important. And everybody works at a different pace. But I think if you’re not working at a pace that is comfy for your client, then it’s perhaps not going to be the most beneficial.
STEF MARRIS:
[28:44] No, certainly you’ll notice backlash. You know, another concept with IFS is that parts will backlash. If you go too fast, too quickly and go straight, try, and go straight for the wound, then there will be, like we said earlier, those defences will go into overdrive and there will be backlash.
SAM SELLERS:
[29:23] I mean, it’s funny because my therapist will say to me, “I always know that I’ve hit a spot if you swear at me” because that’s like that automatic reaction. And I tend to say the same things with my clients. You know, if you’re going to piss off or in other certain terms, that’s when I know, all right, we’re at something good here, where it’s some juicy stuff. And that’s when you sort of have to work out, “Well, at what pace do we take this now?” Because you can go in too hard, too fast and it does more damage.
STEF MARRIS:
And often, they don’t come back. And that’s the big risk is that you get too close, and they don’t come back. And all you can hope is that they’ve had some positive experience of therapy that may in time get them back into the therapeutic room, if not with you, hopefully to somebody else.
SAM SELLERS:
[30:23] Yeah, absolutely. If somebody is listening to this and they’re like, “this sounds really, really great.” What do you want people to know about potentially seeking out therapy using this modality?
STEF MARRIS:
[30:39] Okay. So, looking for somebody who’s IFS trained. There is a directory, there’s an Australian directory. If you look up IFS Institute Australia, that has a relevant qualified practitioners listed, including myself. It is, like most therapy and in the mental health world, generally now, it’s hard to get in some practitioners. The benefit is though, it doesn’t have to be face to face. So, my own therapist is in Melbourne. I’ve never met her in person.
SAM SELLERS:
There’s something about Victorian, they have got great therapists there.
STEF MARRIS:
[31:14] They do, absolutely. And look, I would really say that if you feel like you need to be in the room with someone, if maybe your home environment isn’t safe enough or secure enough, or quiet enough, maybe there’s frogs around, sorry, I shouldn’t be facetious. I’m talking about something serious. That being in the room, knowing that you want to be in the room with someone, but also knowing that you don’t have to be all the time. You know, that’s one thing that COVID has taught us all, a lot of my clients, I work in a hybrid way now. So, they may come in face to face or on the morning of their appointment they may message me and say, “Oh, can we do it online today?” You know, there are some practitioners who work solely online, and a lot of IFS practitioners do.
[32:00] The other thing about IFS, which I particularly love, is that it’s a global community. There are practitioners who are trained all over the world. Certainly, one of my supervisors, she’s in the States. So, I work with her very early in the morning and in the evening for her. That’s incredible. And I’m learning so much from her. I know of practitioners whose counsellors are US based or somewhere else. And that’s like just the depth and wealth of experience that comes with that global community is incredible. Yeah, I think, I don’t know if I’ve answered the question directly, probably more indirectly, but yeah.
SAM SELLERS:
[32:41] I mean, I think at the heart of it is, I guess, what was the inspiration for this podcast, which is getting people to land in the rooms, whether they be physical or virtual, who are going to be able to support them in whatever it is that they’re experiencing, whether it be a particular a particular presentation or a particular modality. I think it’s about being able to find the right person, not just the most convenient person because their location is lucky. There are a lot of people out there who don’t even have therapists in the town that they live in. And so, I think at the core of it, it’s finding somebody who is relatable, relevant, that you can build that relationship with so that you’re in the right room, whether it be physical or virtual.
STEF MARRIS:
[33:39] Yeah, it’s so true.
SAM SELLERS:
[33:40] My favourite moment of every episode is where we get to smash a myth.
STEF MARRIS:
Okay.
SAM SELLERS:
So, when we’re talking about IFS, what is something that people tend to think that’s perhaps not quite accurate?
STEF MARRIS:
[33:55] I don’t know. Like, I think there’s certainly a lot of scepticism around IFS, particularly when you’re talking about sub personalities or whatever. You will find that there’s people who have incredibly intellectual parts of them. And that they’ve developed for very good reason, and they may use that intellectualising part to deflect or get away from things. So, certainly there’s people who don’t necessarily believe in it. They can’t connect with it. They can’t go inside well. In terms of myths, though, I’m trying to remember the ones we talked about before we started recording. I know that certainly the religious side of it was one of the things. What was the other one you mentioned?
SAM SELLERS:
It’s very trendy now. So, I think there is this sort of understanding, both in the therapy world and in the non-therapy world, that it is sort of a social fad, or it is sort of like a trendy therapy that sounds great in theory but is perhaps not super great in practice.
STEF MARRIS:
[35:04] Yeah, look, I think in answers to it being trendy, certainly it has taken off, particularly over COVID it blew up because there was a lot more accessibility with training and everything going online. But it’s been around for decades. It’s been around since the 80s, maybe even earlier. I can’t recall exactly when. It’s not something new. It is something that’s evolved, and it’s branched out. And there are many more facets to it now in terms of what I mentioned earlier, where it’s sort of overlaying, connecting with various other modalities and techniques. Look, I would say this about therapy generally, there is no silver bullet. When it comes to your mental health, it’s a lifelong journey. It’s not something where you do your 10 or 20 sessions, and then bang, you’re ready to go, you’re fine.
[35:53] So, like it is a modality that’s lasted the distance, and I think will continue to last the distance. I think, certainly, you’re right, there are fads. We mentioned EMDR earlier, but again, EMDR is one where you’ve got to be specifically trained, you can’t just wave your finger a few times. I think the reason it will last the distance, is because it does not dispel other modalities. It builds on them, and brings them in, and wants to complement them, and continues to do so. So, a big area of focus is the psychedelic world, psychedelic treatment, and IFS is 100% in there, and growing that space in many ways. And this can be some incredible outcomes. But as far as therapy goes, I’ve been working with an IFS therapist now for I think about two, three years, maybe. And while I’ve come forward in leaps and bounds, and I would not say that I’m the same person I was when I started, I know that this is the kind of work I will continue to do for the rest of my days, to my mind, just so that I can enjoy the rest of my life, and be peaceful in some way, that I can feel some level of healing, and not be burdened by painful experiences.
[37:14] Be able to, if something should happen, like I lost my dad a couple of years ago, that was a really difficult time for me. And I’ve had the support of my therapist the whole way through, it has activated many parts in me, a lot of them connected with my childhood experience. And they, I now know, show up in many ways across my everyday life, and have at times been problematic for me, and now I understand them more. And I can be with that part of me more at different times, even something simple, like going to the dentist, I’ve had to have some root canal recently, don’t recommend.
SAM SELLERS:
Oh, I was like, that triggers something in me. I avoid the dentist, like it is no tomorrow.
STEF MARRIS:
[38:01] Oh, well, there may be a part of it, because I can tell you, there was definitely a part of me that showed up and I couldn’t figure out why I couldn’t understand why I was like so tense and freaking out. And then this part of me reminded me that when I was young, I would have been about four, maybe, I had an abscess on my front tooth. And I’m guessing, I can’t remember, and I my mom’s not around anymore for me to be able to ask. But I think I was put under for a dental procedure to remove the tooth. And there’s a part of me that sort of obviously had some kind of trauma around that, even if it was innocent, showed up again for me when I went to have this root canal and showed up in a big way.
SAM SELLERS:
[38:48] I mean, and we could go down a completely different path with that in terms of medical trauma and things like that. And that trauma can happen whilst you are under anaesthetic, and you don’t have any recollection of it, but your body remembers it. And so, it’s things like that. So, we’ve sort of digressing a bit, but there are parts of those parts that we don’t even have real sort of factual understanding or knowledge of, because we might’ve been unconscious at the time or under anaesthetic or something like that. But, oh boy, I can relate to the anti-dentistry. So yeah, I can relate to that.
STEF MARRIS:
[39:38] Before that I was sort of talking about the difficult experience I’ve had in recent years, losing my dad and the work I’ve done with my therapist over that time and what that’s brought up for me and particularly stuff that happened to me across my life, particularly when I was young. And like even simple things like, for you, you would find people will sit down and maybe say, “Oh, look, I don’t really remember much of my childhood. I don’t have many memories.” The beauty of IFS is that you can uncover a lot of that. There will be things that will come back. There will be, from an IFS perspective, there’d be a defensive part or a protective part blocking access to those memories for some reason. And it’s about understanding and working with that to figure it out.
[40:33] But also, I found there’ve been certain memories that have crept up on me over and over across my adult life that I’ve been like, “Oh yeah, I remember that day” or, “Oh yeah, I remember when that happened.” And I might feel a bit of discomfort around that memory, and then it will sort of pass, and then it might come back again or pass or whatever. And what I found is sometimes when I’ve worked with my therapist, and I might be deep inside doing the insight session, and suddenly, I’ll be like, “Oh my God, that memory’s showing up for me again.” And it will be connected to something important. And that’s been a part of me that’s been trying to get my attention all these years to say, “this happened when you were younger, and this has left an imprint on you that is impacting on you now and in this situation.” So, it’s incredible what it can connect with.
SAM SELLERS:
[41:31] That made me sort of think if you are out there and sort of listening to Stef talk very, very beautifully about that process, and have that language and those words, if you don’t have that, that is okay. You don’t need to have that language. You know, most of my clients do not sit down and say to me, “Sam, I’ve got religious trauma” or I things like that. That’s not the language that you need to have. You will sometimes learn, and that language will be different for you, or you’ll use different terminology and things like that. I think it’s really sort of listening to therapists talk about their experience in therapy and thinking, “I don’t have that language.” And it’s like, you don’t need to have that language because we are coming at it from a different angle as well, because at times it can be hard to separate the professional and the personal part of you in a therapy session, because you are obviously seeing it from two points of view.
[42:37] The thing that I forgot about a second ago, I remembered. It was that I think you touched on a great point, which is that the IFS is not new. This is not something that’s just come in the last few years. Yes, it’s trendy. And like you said, EMDR is the same. It is also not new. You know, there is a book, it’s the gold standard of trauma, which is Bessel’s, The Body Keeps the Score and he talks about IFS in that book. And it is not a book that was released in the last couple of years, he’s talking about work that he did decades and decades ago. And so, I think there can be that cautiousness if something is new and it’s fresh and things like that. But I think it’s not fresh, it’s not new. It might be being talked about more because and it’s become more prominent.
STEF MARRIS:
[43:33] Yeah, certainly. I think you’re right that the pattern, I think for it becoming more prominent was very much that period with COVID, particularly the lockdowns we had here, where everyone’s mental health was challenged. And in my opinion, it wasn’t COVID that did that. It was well, COVID did in a way, but COVID wasn’t causing the stress. What COVID did was it took away everyone’s coping strategies and it meant they had nothing to distract themselves from the distress. And I think because a lot of people went online and obviously social media and stuff, and certainly pop psychologists on social media have grown exponentially. And there’s people out there talking about their experience. There are some great qualified practitioners out there putting fabulous content out there. There are other people putting some not so fabulous stuff out there, but you know, it’s been there, been the forefront for that reason.
[44:34] But IFS, particularly in recent years, they’ve been doing a lot more studies to get an empirical base to it. So, that is very much in that can be more mainstream and it can be that it has that grounding in research. And it’s certainly growing, it is tested. It is a proven technique, and it is known to be beneficial, particularly with trauma, which is why Bessel is a big fan. It’s great. I did want to just touch on the point you made a moment ago about that, that the therapists come out with two perspectives. IFS is incredible for therapists as well in the room because we notice the parts of us that might be activated by someone else’s story. So, I know for me, because I work with teens and I work with young adults, that was a difficult period for me in my life. Some of the stuff they bring in activates my parts. And if I’ve worked with those parts, then I can be okay with it in session. And sometimes it can help inform the session with the individual.
[45:41] Other times I need to just sort of say, “Okay, I’m aware you’re there and I’m aware that you’re like really flooding me right now. Can you just soften back so I can focus, and trust use myself in this session?” And then I will go to my therapist my next session and say, “so I had a session with someone the other day and I noticed this. Let’s go.” So, it’s fantastic in that sense. It is hard though, sometimes to stop those parts from taking over, particularly if it’s a big wound or your own personal wound, but certainly there are some great techniques for therapists in that sense. But also, yeah, absolutely noting your point that we are mapping the client. They don’t have to have the language, where they’re going. Yeah, I can see what’s going on here. There are bits here and there’s bits there. And then certainly we can help them understand their experience. Fantastic work. I love it.
SAM SELLERS:
[46:41] And I think there was sort of, I temporarily forgot that a good portion of your clientele are teenagers. And so, I think it’s easy for people to think that these sorts of approaches are for adults or, you sort of touched on it very early, on family systems, sort of thinking that it is therapy and things like that. But I would imagine that this would be incredible for teenagers.
STEF MARRIS:
[47:12] Yeah, it can be. Absolutely. Look, I think because they are going through a period where they’re trying to find who they are, helping them understand—
SAM SELLERS:
The exploratory stage of life.
STEF MARRIS:
[47:24] Exactly right. But helping them understand that who they are is there already. It’s knowing the different parts of them that are forming or maybe taking on different burdens during that time. And one of my IFS supervisors, the one who’s in the States, she quite rightly said the other day that a lot of people forget that adolescence is supposed to be a time of struggle. It’s an identity crisis for a reason. It’s a time where they need to fail and make mistakes and learn. And we’re so averse to that these days. We want to shelter them from everything, and we want them to be perfect. And we’re so fearful of suicide and self-harm and all these things. And yeah, rightly so, they are difficult things, but their communication, it’s these teens trying to tell us that they’re struggling and stuff, and people are trying to just say, “Just smooth it over. No, everything will be fine. Just keep going. Just keep going. You’ll be right.”
[48:24] And so, IFS is great. And it’s such a privilege to work with teens and young adults. I like working with young adults as well because it’s such an important life phase transition. And it’s such an honour and privilege to witness them connecting with themselves and not abandoning themselves to be able to fit in or to meet other people’s expectations, but to really come into themselves and know who they are and be okay about that. It’s amazing work. I love it.
SAM SELLERS:
[48:55] I can only imagine. I’m just sort of thinking about my own life. I can only imagine what it would have done to have somebody who worked from that perspective in your world at that age. Essentially telling you, “You are not broken. You are not somebody that needs to be fixed.” Yeah, broken is the only thing that’s sort of coming to mind. And so, even just that notion on its own, aside from anything else in that, to have somebody instil that in you and to help you see that you are not a toy that needs to be fixed is incredibly powerful.
STEF MARRIS:
[49:44] So, absolutely. Look, I love being able to say to them who you are is awesome. I really like who you are. I can hear that there are parts of you, you don’t like, and there are parts of you that other people are telling you, you shouldn’t have. But I have a good sense of who you are, based on what you’re bringing here, and I think you’re cool.
SAM SELLERS:
[50:13] I love that. I think that’s a really great way to end, to be honest, is to just remind people that you are pretty cool the way that you are.
STEF MARRIS:
A hundred percent.
SAM SELLERS:
I think if somebody can go to therapy and they walk away with that notion, that’s good enough for me. That’s an incredible way to start. So, thanks for chatting.
STEF MARRIS:
Oh, thank you so much. I’ve enjoyed this.
SAM SELLERS:
It’s been lovely.
STEF MARRIS:
[50:45] I really, I feel great to be able to advocate and represent the IFS world because yeah, I really am privileged to be trained, because as I said, it is so hard to get into the training these days and there’s great people here in Australia that are that are IFS Australia that are working hard. Simon, the head of IFS here, he’s doing some hard work to try and keep up with the demand, and his staff and all the practitioners who work in that training space are so incredible. So yeah, I’m really honoured to be able to talk about it and I hope I’ve done it justice.
SAM SELLERS:
[51:24] Absolutely. I think it’s been great. To be honest, I think the more we can move towards a less fix, more understand, that sort of premise, I think the more we can move towards that generally, is the direction that I want to be going. So, I think mental health for too long has been about fixing and not about understanding. And I think the more that we can move away from that mentality and that language, I think the more growth and the more healing will happen.
STEF MARRIS:
[52:02] I a hundred percent agree with you there. Look, I really want us to move away from a pathologizing approach of mental health, and really show some compassion and stop making people feel like they’re wrong or that they’re a problem and they need to be fixed, like you said. I just think people do so much better when they are offered compassion, but more importantly, when they can offer themselves compassion.
SAM SELLERS:
[52:27] Absolutely. Thanks, Stef.
STEF MARRIS:
That was great.
SAM SELLERS:
We hope you enjoyed joining us Inside the Therapy Room. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next time.